The atomic blake koan

[motherengine]

can things be broken down into smaller particles infinitely or is there a point where they would be broken down into nothingness?

[motherengine]

i guess no one knows mother say to herself, infinitely.

[Turtle]

___The atomic question is sound, but a Koan is nothing more than a teacher's way of busying his students with unanswerable propositions. It is not meant to enlighten, but obfuscate; not to teach but to distract. Eschew the Koan.

[FREYA021]

in nature all happends with some reson. someting will broke down in smaller and smaller particles only if energy bilans is good for that, if new sistem will be more stable then 1st, if new one have bigger energy but on the left side of zero. New sistem has new form, its up to ur mind if u can imagine it, if u cant it doesnt mean it is NOTHINGNESS, becouse u cant destroy energy... only its form; queen of transformation...

hehehe imagine that one of ur Catoms used to be in skin of a dragon :Alien:

[paultrr]

The subject of how small things can get is a matter of perspective and interpretation. Some would view the String or membrane as the smallest unit and some like Smolin's LQFT following would say there are things smaller than a string with a limit to how small things can get in the way of the smallest units of space & time in the form of what is termed loops. Then there is the perspective that there is no minimula unit and everything is a continum. Calculus is based upon infintesimals or smaller and smaller units. Infinity as a concept is based upon the idea of something being a continum. In general this sort of debate has been with us for a long time and probably will continue to be with us. There is also the how large are things debate to throw into this mix. One encounters something along that line in cosmology with the subject of how large is our universe(Unbounded/Finite, Bounded/Finite, Unbounded/Infinite, Multiverse,Static, etc).

 

In general it really does depend upon individual perspective. Hawking, in his book the Universe in a Nutshell, put it that one could be bounded in a nutshell and yet, consider oneself within infinity.

[motherengine]

___The atomic question is sound, but a Koan is nothing more than a teacher's way of busying his students with unanswerable propositions. It is not meant to enlighten, but obfuscate; not to teach but to distract. Eschew the Koan.

 

sorry but you can eschew the concept of enlightenment all you want as nature around you dies from the waste produced by your technological alternatives and thereby you will reep its decay. my opinion, for sure, but certainly as valid as your distaste for zen philosophy.

[motherengine]

thank you for the comments.

[Fishteacher73]

If I recall that the term Atom comes from greek meaning to cleave. An atom was thought to be the smallest thing you could cut down to. We have continually found that things are made of smaller and smaller parts. Perhaps we may find that there comes a point that the matter is no longer any you are left with two pieces of energy. Yet can that energy be reduced? Just as one can always halve the distance between two points, but never reach the destination.

[Turtle]

___Yes... isn't the term Aristotle's? (Atom I mean)

___Ditto the 'thank you' MotherEngine. I do not eschew enlightenment, or even all of zen, but the Koan specifically. My technological waste I purposefully minimalize for enlightened reasons. Moreover, I prefer self enlightenment to choking down the dry chunky restrictive precepts of any supposed masters or their devotees. That is the toxic waste. :Alien:

 

The smallest is the biggest; the first is last. In my end is my beginning. Break on through to the other side. :Alien:

[motherengine]

___Yes... isn't the term Aristotle's? (Atom I mean)

___Ditto the 'thank you' MotherEngine. I do not eschew enlightenment, or even all of zen, but the Koan specifically. My technological waste I purposefully minimalize for enlightened reasons. Moreover, I prefer self enlightenment to choking down the dry chunky restrictive precepts of any supposed masters or their devotees. That is the toxic waste. :Alien:

 

The smallest is the biggest; the first is last. In my end is my beginning. Break on through to the other side. :Alien:

 

actually i was writing (at least partly) in jest. your view of the practice of koan assignment is shared by many who find them to be nonsense used to provoke awareness though this view is far from universal in approaching zen philosophy. i would only suggest that truly understanding the use of koans is reliant on a deeper knowledge of zen then you (i am assuming) or i have. personally i try not to dismiss things out of turn, though on the flip side i have a sneaking suspicion that koans are quite effective in teaching disciples of zen and may actually be less restrictive in nature than anything found in your average science journal.

 

'the gate is straight/deep and wide/break on through to the other side'

[Turtle]

GETE (Grinning Ear To Ear) I don't dismiss Koans out of hand but out of study. Strictly speaking, there are no new Koans, but rather an acknowleged collection passed down. They are as you say, for teaching disciples of zen, but since disciple-hood is not a prerequisite of enlightenment, Koans don't teach enlightement per se.

___Science journals have their own version of Koans such as math & logic puzzles. They too I eschew as waste. If you really wanted to make someone 'think' deeper or clearer, you should present them with worthwhile questions directed at discovery. :Alien:

[Turtle]

One morning as I strode to my master's gate for study, he came out to meet me. "Rather than our normal meditations today", he said, "I present you this Koan. What is the sound of one hand clapping?" I immediately slapped him in the face so hard & so fast that his knees sagged, his eyes watered, and his face reddened. Regaining his composure, he dismissed me to whatever leisure I desired for the day and never presented me with a Koan again.

[motherengine]

GETE (Grinning Ear To Ear) I don't dismiss Koans out of hand but out of study. Strictly speaking, there are no new Koans, but rather an acknowleged collection passed down. They are as you say, for teaching disciples of zen, but since disciple-hood is not a prerequisite of enlightenment, Koans don't teach enlightement per se.

___Science journals have their own version of Koans such as math & logic puzzles. They too I eschew as waste. If you really wanted to make someone 'think' deeper or clearer, you should present them with worthwhile questions directed at discovery. :confused:

 

i would then argue that koans may be 'worthwhile questions directed at discovery'. have you ever taken it upon yourself to be instructed by a master or looked with an unbiased eye at the information: ie looked at koans from the perspective of a student willing to learn or just looked at them through the lense of skeptical reasoning? again, this is your opinion (you are certainly welcome to it) and i am equiped only to doubt its relevance. i just find it hard to believe that something that has worked for many students is waste.

[Turtle]

___Hard to believe indeed. The Master I struck found it hard to believe in all the time of passing down that Koan that no one had ever asnwered as I did. Besides, the goal of a Master is to raise his student to Masterhood & even to higher enlightenment than himself.

___Masters do not present Koans to other Masters, only to students.

[motherengine]

One morning as I strode to my master's gate for study, he came out to meet me. "Rather than our normal meditations today", he said, "I present you this Koan. What is the sound of one hand clapping?" I immediately slapped him in the face so hard & so fast that his knees sagged, his eyes watered, and his face reddened. Regaining his composure, he dismissed me to whatever leisure I desired for the day and never presented me with a Koan again.

 

...because my master realized that i had no respect whatsoever for his teachings. aren't i the clever one to preceed learning with base assumptions. one who has nothing to learn from his master is one who has no need of wisdom but finds it in the stark blood which drips from his mothers breast. in other words, a beast with no respect is but a beast with no respect.

[Turtle]

Wisdom is, as wisdom does. Not all knowledge is learned.

[motherengine]

stupid is as stupid does. wisdom is not displayed through action.