Ice Circles?

[Moontanman]

Forget about Crop Circles, now we have Ice Circles!

 

Crop circles are boring - it is time for ice circles - Gadling | travel blog | news, stories, deals, and tips. Go there.

[carlton-temple]

Here in the mountains of France we do not have "ice-circles" and as respectable people have no intention of having any such things in the kitchen! To my knowledge even the Mayor, who visits Paris often and is "progressive", is not so depraved as to even contemplate allowing such things. So far, in our village at least, these "circles", which I presume are yet another American craze intended to cause obese children have been kept at bay. We, of course circulate our crops like all honest farmers and have been doing so for countless generations, indeed long before that Spanish yachtsman found America!

[pamela]

posted by carlton

Here in the mountains of France we do not have "ice-circles" and as respectable people have no intention of having any such things in the kitchen! To my knowledge even the Mayor, who visits Paris often and is "progressive", is not so depraved as to even contemplate allowing such things. So far, in our village at least, these "circles", which I presume are yet another American craze intended to cause obese children have been kept at bay. We, of course circulate our crops like all honest farmers and have been doing so for countless generations, indeed long before that Spanish yachtsman found America!

not sure i am following you here..... these circles are likely the result of a whirlpool or prank-where does the obese children fit in?

[CraigD]

It appears to me that, with a few possible exceptions, ice circles are naturally occurring, not the result of artificial activity.

 

A short search of the www suggests that, until last few years, the phenomena was little known and only sporadically studied and reported, often in off-beat publications, although, as is often the case with such publications, some of these articles were in-depth and scientifically credible. An example is “Rings of ice”, Fortean Times #74 (1994?), 8.6 MB PDF document), which concludes:

“This is further proof that nature can and does produce precisely defined geometrical traces without the need for alien intervention.”

The earliest reference to ice circles I can find is a reference to the Feb 14 1930 Illustrated London News article “Jack Frost describes a circle”.

 

The basic theory of ice circles formation is that many small ice plates freeze in a circling eddy of water. As freezing continues, the plates freeze together, the outermost ones scraping against a point of land or ice attached to land, until eventually an almost perfectly circular disk forms. Ice freezing outward from land is ground into a matching circle. During the formation, many complicated, beautiful intermediate formations, such as a large disk surrounded by many small “rollers”, have been observed.

[carlton-temple]

not sure i am following you here..... these circles are likely the result of a whirlpool or prank-where does the obese children fit in?

 

One really should be more specific about what type of "ice circles" we are talking about, otherwise one gets so confused. I understood we were talking about "ice circles" as sold by Walmart (see walmart.com), who advertise a: Girl gourmet ice cream maker, circular shape: price $9.95; hence the obese remark. Naturally in France crops=food, so ice=ice cream, do excuse the misunderstanding. I shall study "your" ice circles further but I fear the Mayor won't approve of them either.

[lemit]

When I was growing up on the farm, we would cut holes in the ice so livestock could drink. The resulting cuts would have little white piles of shavings like those in the video. I suspect human hands may have been involved in the circle shown in the video.

 

--lemit

[Moontanman]

One really should be more specific about what type of "ice circles" we are talking about, otherwise one gets so confused. I understood we were talking about "ice circles" as sold by Walmart (see walmart.com), who advertise a: Girl gourmet ice cream maker, circular shape: price $9.95; hence the obese remark. Naturally in France crops=food, so ice=ice cream, do excuse the misunderstanding. I shall study "your" ice circles further but I fear the Mayor won't approve of them either.

 

Hmmm, I'm guessing you missed the link i included in the first post? :hihi:

[pamela]

posted by carlton

One really should be more specific about what type of "ice circles" we are talking about, otherwise one gets so confused. I understood we were talking about "ice circles" as sold by Walmart (see walmart.com), who advertise a: Girl gourmet ice cream maker, circular shape: price $9.95; hence the obese remark. Naturally in France crops=food, so ice=ice cream, do excuse the misunderstanding. I shall study "your" ice circles further but I fear the Mayor won't approve of them either.

haha!!:hihi:

leave it to walmart to make a buck off of the latest craze!

click on the link in the first post and let me know what the mayor would think;)

[carlton-temple]

haha!!

leave it to walmart to make a buck off of the latest craze!

click on the link in the first post and let me know what the mayor would think;)

 

Pamela, obviously walmart aint heard of pancake-ice yet ! Those "cakes" that bung up the Arctic shipping lanes. M. le Mayor is being "progressive" again in Paris, he's always ever so "progressive" this time of year.

[pamela]

haha!! i was compelled to do a search on that one

 

Frazil" is the name given to ice crystals that form in very cold water that is moving around too much to let the ice form into a sheet that would become surface or pack ice.

 

Once the frazil ice (also called "lolly ice" or "slush") has formed on the sea's surface, water movement caused by winds or currents can herd it into globs or shapes.

 

"Pancake ice" is the name given to free floating and mainly circular pieces of ice that form when that surface slush accumulates into floating pads. Further freezing solidifies their tops and they take their roundish shape.

 

The "pancakes" can be up to 3 meters / 10 feet across, and up to 10 cm / 4 inches thick. Collisions as they float about lead to the raised rims, either from the edges getting bashed up from bonking each other, or from the slush that gets splashed onto the edges and freezes to gradually form a rim.

 

These are different than ice floes, which are the free floating pieces of the broken pack ice.

 

Would you like a little syrup with that?

 

Frazil and Pancake Ice

 

you never know, they could market a Sam's choice all natural diet pancake served with a GV brand low cal syrup. Guaranteed to flush out your alimentary canal as well as your shipping canals;)

[carlton-temple]

Pamela, if we keep going we could start our own "flickering-cluster"!

[pamela]

i like you carlton, not only do you make me laugh, but you make me think!!

 

Flickering Cluster Theory

 

The Flickering Cluster Theory is based on the idea that the liquid state can be considered to be a combination of the solid state and the gas state. In this concept, the solid phase particles, called short-range crystals, are suspended in a cloud of independent gas phase units of material.

The Boltzmann Distribution is a mathematical concept that describes the relationship between the kinetic energy of the particles in a system and the number of occurances of particles with specific kinetic energy values.

According to the Boltzmann Distribution, every system can be described as having high velocity particles and low velocity particles all present at the same time.

 

As a result of the random collisions of the particles within the system, the kinetic energy is always being rearranged. Therefore, particles are in continually exchange between high velocity and low velocity.

If the primary difference between the states of matter is the velocity of the particles, then it is logical to imagine that a liquid could consist of solids and gases.

Also, because of the continually exchange of velocity, solid particles can become gas particles, and gas particles can become solid particles.

 

A sample of gas is represented as a series of small blocks of solid state material, suspended in a cloud of gas phase.

 

The flickering cluster idea refers to the solid state ever changing its size and shape. This is a result of random collisions with gas phase units. Some slow moving units will collide with the clusters and become part of them. Some fast moving gas phase units will collide with clusters and knock pieces off of them. Thus, they are "flickering", or changing their appearances.

 

 

One of the most obvious aspects of liquids is their abilities to pour, or their fluidity. Have you ever observed a solid state substance that could pour?

 

If you have ever played with beach sand, then you have probably referred to pouring it out of a bucket. Notice that this is a situation in which solid particles are being poured. The process is allowed to take place because the grains of sand can "flow" over each other. They are not stuck together. Possibly a liquid is much like the solid sand, but even more so. If the crystals of solid are isolated from each other by the low friction gas phase, then the concept of pouring becomes even more noticeable.

 

So, yes, it is possible to pour a solid. There are only two requirements for the theory to work.

 

The solid particles must be quite small

They must not be attached to each other.

The flickering cluster theory takes both of these ideas to the extreme.

 

Liquid State: Flickering Cluster Theory

[carlton-temple]

Pamela, beware of spring impulsions!

 

Expanding our bonds so as to include quantics such as Boltsman* could considerably reduce the warmth of our so intimate icosahedral clustering, indeed our circle might even freeze.

 

P.S. *There's no sign as yet of entropy in our village town hall, maybe the 2nd law don't apply to (French) politics ?

[pamela]

okay, okay, that theory a little over the top for ya? how's this instead;)

 

At ambient temperatures, the icosahedral cluster equilibrium in water is shown rather idealistically in the equation (ESCS). Clearly complete clusters, without any pendant hydrogen bonding, are likely to be rarely, if ever, found. It should be noted that such a five or six (complete) shell cluster has 86% or 89% hydrogen bonding (respectively), approximately in line with that estimated by some in water . A dynamic range of partial structures (reducing the % hydrogen bonding) is expected together with extensive links to pendant molecules and other clusters (increasing the hydrogen bonding). A model, using the significant liquid structure theory, estimates an average of 20 water molecules per flickering cluster gives the best fit over a range of temperatures (0-100°C) [600]. As the hydrogen bonding flickers between arrangements, the stability of the expanded water dodecahedra (see below) will vary . An effectively-infinite number of arrangements (even a dodecahedral (H2O)20 cluster has 30026 symmetry-distinct hydrogen bond arrangements differing in energy by up to the equivalent of 40% of the hydrogen bond energies ) will be found with an extraordinarily complex potential energy surface; lower energy (more symmetrically arranged with smallest net overall and partial-cluster dipoles being more stable )d arrangements tending to expand whereas higher energy forms (more asymmetric with largest net dipoles being least stable) will pucker, so leading to the cluster flickering phenomena. If the range of energies for the dodecahedral (H2O)20 cluster is used for calculating the range of energies for the icosahedral (H2O)280 cluster, it is expected that differences in energy by up to the equivalent of 8% (40% x 60/20 x 20/280) of the hydrogen bond energies will be possible for differing hydrogen bond arrangements. As the temperature is lowered towards 0°C and below, it is expected that a greater degree of cluster completion is to be found, flickering between structural forms . There is likely to be a continuum of structures present. It is also possible that clusters can fuse together to form cylindrical clusters and cover surfaces.

Water cluster equilibria

[carlton-temple]

Pamela, I am pleased to see you shop at such sites as UK/WATER; however "simple" (water) clustering becomes much more exciting when foreign elements are introduced such as sodium (na+) or iron (fe lll). Try a dose of Britannica-water, the whole hydration atmosphere changes ! Ice circles rapidly thaw in interest compared to the implications "dirty-clustering" might play or have played in the promotion of animation.

[pamela]

someone else who thinks water is exciting!:)

But in all honesty, my concerns have been about consumption. Not in so much as what has been added, but what is currently there and not regulated. Any thoughts on this, Carlton?

[lemit]

But to get back to ice circles--and when I skim through this thread, I often see "icicles" or "ice cubes" instead, but I'm digressing too.

 

Now, to get back to ice circles, does anyone believe the video represents a natural phenomenon or a supernatural phenomenon? (I need to stop writing while I'm watching CSPAN. I initially made "natural" "national," which would have caused a whole different set of answers.)

 

And people contributing to this thread might be interested in my question on another thread about how many words we have for snow.

 

--lemit