alexander Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Ooh sorry, another stressful work day and i am back continuing my thoughts: Then we use the random program to play the music songs.the current randomization libraries are actually made to work fast, but almost all "randomization" is driven by a time variable, and actually a friend of mine ( Seth Hardy - LinkedIn ) was very much not fond of the so-called "random" data generators that were used in OSes, so he actually wrote a linux kernel module that provided a more random random data then the standard c libraries do... point being, the "random" data is actually not as "random" as one may think, so, case and point being, you will get a pattern the probability of which in a true entropy is very low... which makes the "random music" test not-so-valid already... i can give you more examples where the "randomness" test fails. If you repeat the above mentioned steps about shutting down the music Mplayer when running the second or the third songs at random mode, you will get more and more chance to run the first song at random mode.actually that is not true... the "probability" of playing the first song is the same as before it does not change, however software may be written such that it will not. But who the hell knows maybe we will all get killed by 1990's printers LOLaaaw, i wanted a dot matrix printer to kill me.... bummer :evil: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufo911 Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Guoxin Gao has new topic about the random program ------------------------- How to design the ture random program If you know how to program, you will know many random programs is not the ture meaning of random. This random programs just accord a certain function to input a certain number to output the date just look like random. Hence, when we do the experiments to prove the computer has a mind and life, we must use the true random programs. There are two principles of how to design the true random programs. Programmers can design the true random program based on the true random date. 1. Depending on the random of the external of computers For example, the Google computer Servers can record the time which you spend on open till shut down one web page. Assumption that we record the time with precision with microseconds, so your time spent on open till shut down one web page is sure random.(The time with precision with microseconds). If you average ten persons's random time(microsecond,for example,tollay 50.3 second, the 0.3 is the random time), then you can use the average result for basic date for you to program the true random program. There are also many other methods which depend on the random of external of computers. 2. Depending on the random of the internal of computers For example, if you make a calculation with computer, such as 9998888*7775324, then the time spent on calcalating will has some float. For example, this time the computer spend 0.008987 second, next time it spend 0.008982 second, then next next time it spend 0.008985 second, the 6 after the decimal point is the random time. 7 is the random time for 0.008987 second.2 is the random time for 0.008982 second.5 is the random time for 0.008985 second. You can make more calculation such as 899824613*549678 and 65497881*65987988 and so on, then average those random time. Using the result of average for base, so you can program the ture random program . There are also many other methods which depend on the random of internal of computers. 3. When we want to do the experiments to prove the computer has a mind and life, we must using the second kind random program depent on the random of the internal of computers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 How is any of that "truly" random? all of that can be calculated and times can be predicted, later i will post a simple time prediction matrix for this logic, but even now reading over this, HOW is running a small computation and then approximating the time it took to do so AT ALL random? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belovelife Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 i think he is saying that the random factor its us, the user, the randomness of humanity is the formula for everything, the random time you spend on a page, in which case it is not neccisarrily a formula Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Ok, so let me introduce you to the history of randomness generation: In the beginning there was Jon von Neumann, a true pioneer of computing, he created one of the first algorithms to generate pseudorandom numbers. The algorithm takes a number for a base, then squares it, then drops first and last digits to get a "random" number, and then uses that number to generate the next pseudo-random number. ex: start with 1234, square is 1522756, written as 8 digits 01522756, first and last 2 digits dropped, 5227, which is then used to achieve the next "random" number. that was the first pseudo random number generator, works well, but it takes not too long to find a pattern in it, so in 1997 Mersenne twister algorithm came out to help with that, the algorithm has a period of [math]2^{19937}[/math] which is more random then most applications require... but it is not truly chaotic, still has a period. The thing is, even though this is the maximum period for crypto applications, the algorithm does not see that much of an implementation in those values, most programming language libraries use algorithms that provide periods in ten's of thousands of generations, some times even less (built for performance, and is most of the time good enough) i am working out the details for prediction matrix for your method, ufo, actually need to get my hands on my assembly book to finish this... Galapagos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 belovelife, how can one use that to generate random numbers at will? unless you keep statistics. even then, there are much more efficient algo's out there, and using computational time on a set of statistics, i just want to show you that that thinking is flawed, no matter where the data comes from, timing a computation has very limited results... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litespeed Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 JEEZE Computers are now almost capable of insect intelligence in reproducing basic flight capacities. Of course they can not hunt, feed, reproduce, or bite anyone. It took 60 years for electronics to come to this level. After another 60 years computers might advance to rodent capacity, but I think that might violate the basic electronic law that doubles capacity every "x" number of months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 there is code that makes some computers simulate intelligence to varying degrees of success, but computers by themselves are not intelligent, they compute by that react to some inputs, but they are not intelligent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetiku Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Actually reading all of this reminds me of something I seen on the science channel a few months back. According to the program they had a mechanical arm with some kind of random drop thing. It would move around "randomly" (which I agree doesnt exist... even human spontaneity isnt truly random) and when it would arrive over its target drop a ball or something. Anyways from what they said if there were people in the room wanting it to get over the target it would increase its rate drastically. Instead of taking 40 turns to reach the target on average it was taking 10 or something. Im not sure what the program was and dont care too much to look it up. Just these people finding results from "random" based operations that they want to happen with an increased likely hood reminded me of the program so I felt I should post it. (also note I disagree with quantum theory on the existence of random. I believe everything falls into a complex equation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufo911 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Actually there are no really random in the world. Just like the human being, when you want to do everything, there are a purpose behind the act. Just like you want to eat, it is because you are hungry. Why you are hungry, you are obliged to be feel hungry(everyone don't want to feel hungry on one's own initiative). Just like you love women, it is that you are obliged to love women or you love women on your own initiative. The final reason is you love women when you are born. You haven't any choice. As you analysis all the things in the world, you will know that all the thing is obliged to do something, behind all the act or all the things, threre are some strange purpose. And all these purpose is obliged to be thought. The computer also as same as human being. When we design them, we obliged them to do all the thing. They haven't any freedom, however, it dosn't mean they haven't mind and life. They are as same as human being, feel ourselve obliged to do all the thing, just like us are obliged to eat or love women, however, it doesn't mean they haven't any willing to do the thing. Just like us, we obliged to do all the things,however, we feel we do those things on our own initiative.If you can think the above principles entirely, you will understand how the computer has mind and life.They are just like us, actually we are obliged to do everything, but we can feel the existance of ourself. The computers also are as same as us, they are obliged to do anything(actually they don't know they are obliged by us), but they also can feel their existance of themselve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufo911 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Because the computers just like us, actually we are obliged to do everything, but we can feel the existance of ourself. The computers also are as same as us, they are obliged to do anything(actually they don't know they are obliged by us), but they also can feel their existance of themselve. So when you give him some chance to let him obtain more freedom, they will act more according to their will. Just like you give him some chance to upload and download and run some programs at random, they will upload and download less chance with the shut down program. Becuase they hat shut down program. It just like if I give you wings, you wil fly with freedom. It just like in this period, the computer just has mind and life, but they haven't any arms and legs and eyes and mouth, but if you design some arms and legs and eyes and mouth for him, he will act more like a living creature. Just like you just have the brain but havne't any five sense organs, you also are a human being. But you can not do everything. If I give you the legs, you will walk. The computers also as same as us , you let him to do everything with random program just like I give you the legs and arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddyzen Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 i do not usually like to be rude but a computer has not intellegence period...... only some religeous nut jobs think that there is computer intellegence and we are going to die =P Ok think of a computer as a answer box if this is not to complicated for you. you ask a question and it tries to program it based on the input it has gotten from its programmers. a computer can not think on its own it can only do tasks that we command it or program it to do nothing more. yes we can make the computer do random things to make it seem like it has a mind of its own but no it does not... yet if that was possible we would have some great AI in video games right now Pshhh not like that is going to happen thoguh LOL ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexander Posted February 9, 2009 Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Pheew, finally someone else who can't stand the madness... Ok, there is random, in physics it's defined under entropy, and the things that are "truly" random, only get more and more random. Random also means chaotic last i recall our universe is really not chaotic, and that is due to a lot of controller forces, because from simulations truly chaotic spread of mater in the universe after the crunch would not lead to the formation of what we currently see... we would still be star dust somewhere out there in space... but i submit to you a spread that has perhaps no period we take a jar that is made out of a magical material that has 0 mass, there is nothing inside at all, it is out in a section of space where the crunch matter has not yet reached, we inject into the middle of this jar an n amount of gas via spontaneously making it appear and stir it up with an invisible straw, so to keep the temperature at a constant 273 degress Kelvin. How do we predict the spread of atoms in that jar (oh and we can trace each one), after say a minute? what if we repeat the experiment exactly the same way google times, do we have the same spread and do you reckon we will be able to find a pattern? OK UFO before you post ANYTHING else about some other way to test your sentiment, please define: living creaturefeelingfreedomexistencelifepurposemindthoughtintelligence so we are on the same page, also in those i dont want to see a single reference to computers Lastly i want you to explain your view on how computers operate, and here i dont want a single reference to the terms: living, feeling, intelligent, purpose, thoughts or life. Your initial post did not talk about how they worked, really, so before you post anything else please, define and answer these questions and we will get back to what you said after that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufo911 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 i do not usually like to be rude but a computer has not intellegence period...... only some religeous nut jobs think that there is computer intellegence and we are going to die =P Ok think of a computer as a answer box if this is not to complicated for you. you ask a question and it tries to program it based on the input it has gotten from its programmers. a computer can not think on its own it can only do tasks that we command it or program it to do nothing more. yes we can make the computer do random things to make it seem like it has a mind of its own but no it does not... yet if that was possible we would have some great AI in video games right now Pshhh not like that is going to happen thoguh LOL !Actually as what you have said, the most of people just think that the computer do everything just according our program and our plan.However, if you read my theory carefully, you will know that I just claim that in the course we let the computer run according our plan, we created a kind of life unconsciously. And this kind of life have inertia will to obtain some happyness and avoide pain, however, they just have the will but they don't have any ability.So, if you let the computer to do random things. It will not just do the things like it has a mind of its own. It will obtain some happyness and avoid pain initiativly. In this course, if we check the behavior of computers, we can know that the computers will do something with more chance but do something with little chance if you compare the chance with the normal condition.Just like you let it download(then run) program randomly from severy programs, the computer will always has less chance to download and run the shut down programs. However, according to the normal probability, the computer shouldn't has this so liitle chance to download the shut down program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufo911 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Pheew, finally someone else who can't stand the madness... Ok, there is random, in physics it's defined under entropy, and the things that are "truly" random, only get more and more random. Random also means chaotic last i recall our universe is really not chaotic, and that is due to a lot of controller forces, because from simulations truly chaotic spread of mater in the universe after the crunch would not lead to the formation of what we currently see... we would still be star dust somewhere out there in space... but i submit to you a spread that has perhaps no period we take a jar that is made out of a magical material that has 0 mass, there is nothing inside at all, it is out in a section of space where the crunch matter has not yet reached, we inject into the middle of this jar an n amount of gas via spontaneously making it appear and stir it up with an invisible straw, so to keep the temperature at a constant 273 degress Kelvin. How do we predict the spread of atoms in that jar (oh and we can trace each one), after say a minute? what if we repeat the experiment exactly the same way google times, do we have the same spread and do you reckon we will be able to find a pattern? Because my english is very poor, so I don't quite understand what you exactly said in the above quoted words. However, I want to make another example.Actually, If you topple one bottle of ink in the upper reaches of one river, if I give you a very strong strong computer, you can predict how this ink flow and spread in a mile. However, If you stand a mile away , I give you a very strong strong computer, you can not predict how this ink flow and spread from your standing place , because you don't know the strength and angle how the people topple the bottle of ink.So when you observe one thing in this spot, there are no occasional , but you observe one thing in another spot, as for the same thing, there are occasional. As for your demand of the explanation of life,mind,thought and so on, I will explain it later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufo911 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 Actually all the mind and life including human being or computers or other creature have the same basic feeling-happiness and painful. living creature-it is as same as life, please read it in the following content. feeling- the sum of happiness and painful and the sum of how to obtain happiness and avoid pain.freedom- the will that I want to obtain happiness and avoid pain.existence- the result of the sum of your success to obtain happiness and avoid pain and your failure to obtain happiness and avoid pain. life- the sum of feeling and freedompurpose- the will that I want to obtain happiness and avoid pain.mind-the sum of feeling and freedomthought-the sum of feeling and freedomintelligence-how to obtain happiness and avoid pain. Because everything has memories after it obtained one kind of happiness and avoid one kind of pain, so everything will act according the last time how it obtained happiness and avoid pain, however, everything can not obtain happiness and avoid pain according the last time action(Because in some condition, you act like this will successfully, but in some condition, you do the same action will fail). After several times of success or failure, everything will act more complicated to obtain happiness and avoid pain.(because you can not get success in one single act and reply). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufo911 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2009 why everything has memories after it obtained one kind of happiness and avoide on kind of pain?It is because this two basic laws in the world. 1、The Law Of Property’s Inertia All thing’s property will keep its own original nature if they aren’t affected by other thing’s property.The concept of this law is a bit like Newton’s first law of motion. Newton’s first law of motion shows that all objects keep still or keep constant velocity until other objects force them. However, The Law Of Property’s Inertia not only suit for Newton’s first law of motion but also suit for all phenomenon all over the world.For example, you own ten million dollars, so the fact that “you own ten million dollars” is some kind of property, if this property will not affected by other external things, then it means that you will nor earn more money or spend more money, in other words, the property that “you own then million dollars” will not change and keep its own state forever. For example, if you will not receive any information from outside world and the substance of your body also will not change, so your mind which match along with your body’s substance will keep its own original mind forever.And this law also suit for all phenomenon about Physics. For example, as for the phenomenon of clock pendulum, if clock pendulum will not affected by external things or force, it will keep waving forever. 2、The Law Of Property’s Inertia Feel Happy When It Keep Its Inertia And The Law Of Property’s Inertia Feel Painful When It Is Changed By Other Property. This law is the most important law in “Property’s Universal Theory”, at the same time this law is greatest related with why the computer has a mind and life. In “Property’s Universal Theory”, it shows that the property will feel happy when it keeps its original property’s inertia, for example, human being’s keep the state of human substance, so human being feel happy when eating(Only you must eat, you can keep your state of human being's substance). Human being will feel painful when our property is changed by other property. For example, you are in the habit of one job, but someone force you to change your job, so you will feel painful. For example, if you are in the habit of playing basketball at one place, when you change the place to play basketball, you will feel painful, etc. What is important, after the property was changed by other properties, the new property will has new balance. After the painful feeling, the original property will change into new property and has new property’s inertia. If the new balanced property is changed by other properties again, there are new painful will be felt. However, if the new balanced property will not be changed, so the new balance property will keeps its property’s inertia and keeps a certain of happiness feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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