Does this physical "evidence" make you believe in God?

[Mr. Peterman]

Hello, I've been wondering about this "evidence". Okay so I've seen this movie documentary where these two explorers find what is in my opinion the real Mount Sinai. I definitely think it is the very place referenced in the book of Exodus, but I'm not sure I can call if proof of God. The movie shows a place in Saudi Arabia that matches historical references to the Mountain of God that has among a few other things, a HUGE calf altar and the Split Rock of Horeb. This is THE place, but what is actually evidence of God. Would a gigantic split rock sticking up in the middle of the desert on the top of a hill, that shows evidence of water erosion and has even been carved out by water on the inside of the crack in the rock enough to convince someone to believe in God. Should it be enough. What are the probablities of this Split Rock of Horeb occuring natually. Also, and separately, what about the sulfur balls in the place some believe was Sodom and Gomorrah (sulfur = brimstone). There is evidence that they were burning when they fell. I've heard of only one explanation of how this might have happened naturally, but it is so far fetched that it is easier to believe in God with no evidence at all. And if it did happen naturally, what physical proof remains of such an occurence. FYI: The movie I saw about the real Mount Sinai was called Mountain of Fire and the movie about the Sodom and Gomorrah incident was by Ron Wyatt. Woud this stuff be enough to convince you? Should it be enough to convince me?

[Moontanman]

I would need to see some links to this stuff, seeing it in a movie doesn't make it true. All of the stuff you mention could be natural. You say sulfur balls in a pace some say is Sodom and Gomorrah, who says so? Anything claimed by Ron Wyatt is suspicious to say the least.

 

Ron Wyatt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[InfiniteNow]

Here's a link to the playlist which splits it into 5 parts:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A08_oRBAVPA&feature=PlayList&p=49F4023A334FE956&index=0&playnext=1

 

YouTube - Mountain Of Fire - The Search For The True Mount Sinai (Part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A08_oRBAVPA&feature=PlayList&p=49F4023A334FE956&index=0&playnext=1

 

 

Perhaps they can say that there is a location on the planet which was peripherally mentioned in the bible, but that's about it. It doens't prove god in any way, shape, or form.

[pamela]

originally posted by Mr P

I've heard of only one explanation of how this might have happened naturally, but it is so far fetched that it is easier to believe in God with no evidence at all.

There isn't any way to prove the existance of God. You may find evidence of natural occurrences that may be interpreted as biblical references, but they remain natural. Faith is what makes them supernatural. There isn't anything that can convince someone to believe in God. Infact, even the bible states this "Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence unseen". You either chose to believe in God, or not.

[Mr. Peterman]

Well as far as faith is concerned I don't believe the way Christians believe in faith. I don't believe it can help miracles happen, and and any reasoning from such implications, such as believing in something with no evidence (i.e. believing that a miracle will happen). As far as Ron Wyatt and his credibility, I've actually seen real life video footage of the actual sulfur balls embedded in the rock and saw them burn. Ron Wyatt's credibility isn't an issue. He really did find sulfur balls near the Dead Sea, and probably because he wasn't the first to do so. There have even been books written on the issue by geologists in like the 1920's. And in the case where you could believe that the sulfur balls were planted, that is artificially burned into the rock before the videos were taken, I've actually seen on real life video the original ash rock or whatever it is being broken away to get to the sulfur. To fake that you would have to compress a gigantic ash rock together either in the desert or you would have to transport it there. Actaully you may be able to glue a small one to the same kind of rock, but hey. My personal opinion on Ron Wyatt is that he either had fantasy dreams about finding the Ark of the Covenant and it was a schizophrenic memory problem, or he just thought he could get rich quick. I believe the latter however I'm not sure. And about the Split Rock of Horeb, I'm not saying it's 100% proof or anything, but I'm saying if I have to determine what to count on by probablilities...If it is a natural phenomenon, it would have to be explained by natural mechanisms. And the best one I can think of is that an artesian well or water under extreme pressure cracked the rock and shot out of the crack for a relatively long time, carving out the rock. To believe this you would have to believe that the crack just happened to be a relatively straight plane (this might be probable if the rock was crystalllized AND had a clevage plane in the direction of the crack, gravity could also do it then.) and just happened to be in the middle of the rock. You would also have to believe that this crack penetrated all the way to the top before it cracked to the sides or else the pressure would have been relieved and the crack to the top wouldn't be there, unless you believe the entire crack was produced by a sharp abrasion by water all the way up. And I'm not even sure what the pressures would have to be to push apart granite, if you believe the former theory. You would also have to believe that the crack just happened to find its way all the way to the top of a hill and made its way through a rock rather than some easier way. You would then expect to find water erosion from other cracks coming out of the ground in the general area. I don't know, you might could find evidence of this. You would also have to believe that this rock just happens to be sitting on top of a hill and just happens to be jutting out above the landscape and just happens to attract the attention people so much that a large bunch of people decide to build a gigantic rock formation out in the middle of the desert and teach their children that Moses struck the rock and God made water come out of it. Some of this could be believable but to me not enough. And also, having to do with the sulfur, there would have to be some reason for the sulfur occuring naturally. It could have been a volcano that erupted during that time that shot sulfur out or some type of sulphur weather phenomenon. But then you would expect to find sulfur balls embedded in the rock in other parts of the world and perhaps a volcano that erupted in that short time period in that general location. I don't know if someone could find evidence of such things and I don't know enough about this stuff to prove or disprove anything, but I do consider it possible to do so for the most part. Also as far as the possibility of spiritual stuff, I'm schizophrenic, so called. I've seen miracles, seen visions of the future(that I didn't like seeing), dialog concerning the future, and have had telepathic conversations to one person in particular and had a telepathic conversation with myself from the past to the future and future self to the past self. Funny huh? I could talk about this stuff quite a bit, but not here. But before I had any of this stuff happen to me, I'm used to believe just like anyone else. I didn't believe in telepathic stuff or psychics and things and when someone in church said they had a vision from God I didn't believe them, although I still don't beliieve they are from God. I didn't believe my friend could really see anything in her crystall ball either. I couldn't. To a doctor, it is a sickness of the mind, but to me it is in all ways an apparent spiritual phenomenon. In some ways I wish I was still seeing things. It's not every day that you see blood red letters being written on a cool dark cloudy night sky. Unfortunately my family shook me out of the experience before I could read the whole thing. All I remember now is something about copycatting. I couldn't remember the first part and only remembered the second part because it confused me and made me think about it. There is this other schizophrenic girl I've heard about, who supposively talks to God, so I'm interested in what she's hearing. That's the next main thing on my agenda. Oh yeah, one good website is splitrockresearch.com or .org, I can't remember. It has a picture of the Split Rock.

[pamela]

originally posted by Mr P

To a doctor, it is a sickness of the mind, but to me it is in all ways an apparent spiritual phenomenon

In order to look at this objectively, you may want to not address this from a spiritual perspective. It is important to note that we can attach significance to any naturally occurring phenomenon, if it suits our belief system. However, that does not make it valid

[Moontanman]

None of the stuff you talk about is outside the realm of the natural world, the sulfur balls are not unheard of or unusual, the split rock is just one of thousands if not millions all over the world in desert regions. Ron Wyatt is not a good source, he is not considered to be anything but a crank. If you want to discuss these things lets take them one at a time and see if they really are evidence of the supernatural.

[Mr. Peterman]

If nothing can prove to a person that there is a God or supernatural phenomenon,

thats pretty close minded. I guess no one would believe in the supernatural or

anything for that matter if they would not even consider it as a possibility. Now on

to other things. Well I would say that sulfur balls are not unheard of but I would

say they are unusual since I've only seen sulfur balls from elsewhere in one other

place in the ocean. Oh and having to do with split rocks, they seem from pictures of

other split rocks to be primarily caused by sheer forces from gravity or large impact

forces so that probably excludes that the water split the Split Rock of Horeb. If you

believe that,then you would have to believe that the water just happened to surface

at a split rock on top of a hill. Oh I have another naturalistic theory of how the

Split Rock of Horeb was split. Maybe Moses struck it really, really hard with his

staff. Maybe God had nothing to do with it. ha ha I've found another link that you

might find interesting. As I said before, Ron Wyatts credibility isn't an issue,

when you can see pictures and videos yourself. I did have a great link here that could show you the sulfur balls and what look like man made ruins, but the forum won't let me post urls until I've made ten posts. What a bummer. You can find the stuff online if you just look up Ron Wyatts stuff or look for sulfur balls in Google images. That's how I found it. Check out the manmade structures then tell me what you think.

[InfiniteNow]

If nothing can prove to a person that there is a God or supernatural phenomenon, thats pretty close minded.

Nobody here has said that "nothing" could prove that there is a god, simply that what you've presented doesn't. That is a rather large difference to bear in mind, my friend.

 

 

“An open mind is all very well in its way, but it ought not to be so open that there is no keeping anything in or out of it. It should be capable of shutting its doors sometimes, or it may be found a little draughty.”

~ Samuel Butler

[Moontanman]

If nothing can prove to a person that there is a God or supernatural phenomenon,

thats pretty close minded. I guess no one would believe in the supernatural or

anything for that matter if they would not even consider it as a possibility.

 

First I am sure I never said any such thing, proof of the supernatural would be accepted quite quickly if it was ever given.

 

Now on to other things. Well I would say that sulfur balls are not unheard of but I would say they are unusual since I've only seen sulfur balls from elsewhere in one other place in the ocean.

 

So the unusual is now proof of the supernatural? Sulfur deposits in crusty masses, chunks and such are quite common around volcano's, hot springs, steam vents, and other places. I see no reason to suppose the supernatural when I see sulfur deposits.

 

Oh and having to do with split rocks, they seem from pictures of other split rocks to be primarily caused by sheer forces from gravity or large impact forces so that probably excludes that the water split the Split Rock of Horeb. If you believe that,then you would have to believe that the water just happened to surface at a split rock on top of a hill.

 

Split rocks can be caused by lots of things, earth quakes, ice freezing at night in the cold desert, the simple heating and cooling of rocks. many different things cause split rocks. Nothing supernatural about it. So in this case you are assuming that water spurted up out of this rock? What evidence do you have for that occurrence? What evidence do you have that this was this split rock and not some other split rock? Do you have any evidence it occurred at all?

 

 

Oh I have another naturalistic theory of how the Split Rock of Horeb was split. Maybe Moses struck it really, really hard with his

staff. Maybe God had nothing to do with it. ha ha I've found another link that you might find interesting. As I said before, Ron Wyatts credibility isn't an issue, when you can see pictures and videos yourself.

 

You not having a problem with Ron Wyatts doesn't mean he is the real deal , he is a crank, he is not an accredited member of any archeology group, he has no degrees and his finding are not accepted by anyone other than other religious cranks. Anytime you have someone with an agenda finding things no one else sees it is cause for concern.

 

I did have a great link here that could show you the sulfur balls and what look like man made ruins, but the forum won't let me post urls until I've made ten posts. What a bummer. You can find the stuff online if you just look up Ron Wyatts stuff or look for sulfur balls in Google images. That's how I found it. Check out the manmade structures then tell me what you think.

 

 

I goggled Ron and his buddies when I read your first post, I was not even impressed a little bit, his stuff is suspect in all cases, so is the stuff by his religious buddies. No one but him and the other people with the same agenda give any credence to his stuff at all. None of it is even close to being proof of anything except that it was done by people with an agenda to push at any cost.

[Mr. Peterman]

I was talking about pamela's post when she said something to the effect that nothing can convince someone to believe in God. Second, If you told a psychologist something that would happen in the future especially while you're panicing, they would consider it babbling and certainly wouldn't remember what you said to compare it to what actually happens in the future. And how could they when the person giving you those powers doesn't want them to remember. After all they can manipulate the present to effect the future to an extent. Anyway, if people did hear about the future once and see it happen, they would just question their memory or just chalk it up to coincidence.

 

To my knowlege sulfur deposits are only located around volcanos and such so you would only expect to find them in those kinds of places. Honestly I don't know if the location of "Sodom and Gomorrah" is nearby something like this. Maybe someone else who knows more can help. But also I think that sulfur chunks are either deposited in such a way or come from some nearby parent rock. I'm not a geologist though. The sulfur I was talking about had actually been burning. Also there is evidence that the cities actually burned. Some kind of city burned due to these burning sulfur deposits. You can see them if you watch the free videos online of Ron Wyatt's incredibly uncredible videos of Sodom and Gomorrah online. I personally think it is better to look at the evidence yourself than to just believe what some other people say about it who apparently haven't seen it and/or probably don't/didn't want to because they won't know what to say next. I also think Ron Wyatt is quite possibly a crank, but as I've said before that makes NO DIFFERENCE when you can watch real life videos of the discovery. There are movies of the Sodom and Gomorrah site. They are either a) real, :cup: a very good magic show, or c) computer generated. Watch them and then tell me what you think they are. And in regards to him finding things no one else sees, I hope you are referring to the Ark of the Covenant because I and others have seen the Sodom and Gomorrah site and geologists have written books about the area that mention the sulfur. So it is indeed a real place, and if you would look at videos and pictures you could see the manmade ruins of the cities. Apparently in this pertinent case Ron Wyatt sees what others have seen. The legend of Sodom and Gomorrah was apparently based off a true story that happened near the time it was written about so you should (if it wasn't a miracle) be able to locate the source of explosion of a volcano or something near that time. I don't know what someone could find out about this. Also as far as archaeology goes, no professional archaeologiists would be willing to present information that could harm the ideology of the evolution/old eath organizations that fund them and that they are a part of.

 

Regarding the Split Rock, there is evidence of water erosion that you can see in pictures and video. The Rock is deeply gouged out at the bottom of the crack. If you saw smoothed rock over here and regular rock everywhere else what would you think it was, wind or water erosion? To answer why would I think this is the Split Rock of Horeb, I would think it was the rock because it is so close to all the other artifacts mentioned in Exodus and found in Saudi Arabia. Exodus also talks like it was a very promenant well known rock even before it was split and it matches that description very well. Besides that it is to my knowlege the only such split rock around.

[pamela]

originally posted by Mr P

I was talking about pamela's post when she said something to the effect that nothing can convince someone to believe in God.

originally posted by me

There isn't any way to prove the existance of God. You may find evidence of natural occurrences that may be interpreted as biblical references, but they remain natural. Faith is what makes them supernatural. There isn't anything that can convince someone to believe in God. Infact, even the bible states this "Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence unseen". You either chose to believe in God, or not.

My "anything" in this statement is referring to physical evidence and should not be taken out of context. I saw a video recently where a mold pattern developed on a ceiling in a health club. The pattern resembled what is a common "likeness" of Jesus. Some are touting this as a miracle. Is this evidence of God? People will see what they want to see in this. Faith tells them that the likeness is there because God is watching them and is supportive of their exercise. They feel better.

The truth of the matter is this. Stachybotrys mold is highly dangerous to the body, especially when it is dry.

from Wiki

Exposure to the mycotoxins present in Stachybotrys chartarum or Stachybotrys atra can have a wide range of effects. Depending on the length of exposure and volume of spores inhaled or ingested, symptoms can manifest as chronic fatigue or headaches, fever, irritation to the eyes, mucous membranes of the mouth, nose and throat, sneezing, rashes, and chronic coughing. In severe cases of exposure or cases exacerbated by allergic reaction, symptoms can be extreme including nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and bleeding in the lungs and nose

One person's miracle, is another person's demise

[HydrogenBond]

The legend of Sodom and Gomorrah was apparently based off a true story that happened near the time it was written about so you should (if it wasn't a miracle) be able to locate the source of explosion of a volcano or something near that time.

 

Say you could locate a volcano, to find a physical explanation for the legend. Even if you put aside the miracle angle, that data would tell us something else.

 

If a volcano had erupted naturally, it is likely the people who resided in Sodom and Gomorra, before the eruption, were aware of the "earth god of the volcano". They might have migrated or chosen that place to live because it was near this powerful god (in the figurative sense). The bible was not the only religion at that time.

 

The hot sulfur springs, the occasional rumbling of the ground, was from their earth god, with the sulfide stink making him a smelly earth god. This would attract a certain type of person also making it easy to find.

 

Consider the situation where their "earth god" is getting restless, because the volcano is showing increased seismic signs. Their god would become scarier, making people act even more desperate in their worship. Their god is awakening and maybe about to appear to them. All his affects can burn the human flesh, and if he appears what is going to happen. They did not heed the seismic warnings. Instead they were in denial acting increasingly compulsive (under stress) in the worship of their earth god. Desperate times make people do desperate things.

 

The cause and affect of the bible could be backwards. The bible has the eruption and destruction due to the behavior. But the behavior could have been due to the stress of the impending eruption, with the final eruption a logical seismic extrapolation that can be inferred from the bizarre behavior.

 

It is like if you see animals migrating for no reason, you might warn your neighbors to leave because something is about to happen. If they don't leave, the god of the forest fire will lay destruction to you.

[Moontanman]

MR,. Peterman, so far you have offered no evidence for the existence of god. Just because a city was written about in the bible doesn't make it true. The bible is a work of fiction that uses real historical accounts in it's writing. If I wrote a book about New York City being invaded by vampires and used the name of real places and streets or even people it wouldn't make the book true.

 

Lots of time and energy have been put into "proving" the bible, all we get is the occasional mention of a real city or nation and possibly a few real people. a few sulfur deposits in what appears to be a a burn city does not make a biblical miracle.

 

i searched through many pages of Google but i couldn't find any page that told about S&G that wasn't a "religious" site other than wikki and they said the evidence for the existence of S&G is weak if at all. All we have are people who assume they were real and then set out to prove it. Very few if any of these people come up with any real evidence most say the cities must have been covered by the Dead Sea because they can find no evidence of the cities above ground that jives with their predisposed notion of what they should discover.

 

Ron Wyatt is not even taken seriously by most of these religious archeologist's, he is considered by most to be a total fake and even when shown absolute evidence that some of his "discoveries" are not true he refuses to see it. the range of theories about S&G went from a meteor strike to nuclear weapons to earthquake and upwelling of oil and sulfur from underground but all assumed the cities to be real with out any real evidence.

 

As for the rock it is more of a case of finding a rock and then trying to match it with what you want it to be. Trying to prove the bible this way is a fools errand, even if a city remains were found that had burned and there were sulfur deposits it wouldn't prove anything. Saying that finding a city that was burnt and finding sulfur deposits in it as proof of god destroying that city would be weak to say the least. sulfur is quite common, it was used in ancient times and it is found in the area where S&G was supposed to be. Lots of deposits of oil, salt, and sulfur are in that area.

 

On top of all that burning sulfur is not exactly a weapon of mass destruction, if has no magical properties that make it especially flammable or destructive. It was a mythological form of punishment, it is associated with hell fire because it is associated with volcanoes that were once thought to be gate ways to hell.

 

None of the evidence you site holds up to even the smallest scrutiny, you can believe anything you want but so far you have no evidence that proves anything at all and it's highly suspicious due to it's source. I see no more evidence of S&G or it's miraculous destruction than I see for the existence of Atlantis and it's miraculous destruction, both are mythological in origin, and might have some small basis in fact but are truly works of storying telling to make a point about the authors perceived morals or lack there of.

 

To me if indeed S&G were real and the biblical account i true then it shows a distinct lack of morality by Lot and gods angles and the idea of what morality is. If Lot offering his young virgin daughters to the men to have their way with so they would leave the strangers alone is moral then i for one want no part of it.

[Turtle]

Biblical archaeology is a fascinating topic. I think you'll find this piece of interest. :)

 

Simcha Jacobovici, Santorini volcano and the biblical Exodus from Egypt - Santorini Greece

Simcha Jacobovici, Santorini volcano and the biblical Exodus from Egypt

April 18, 2006

 

A provocative $4-million documentary by Toronto filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici claims to have found archeological evidence connecting the story of the biblical Exodus from Egypt, 3,500 years ago with the minoan era eruption of the volcano of Santorini. ...

[Moontanman]

Isn't "Biblical Archeology" an oxymoron? :shrug: :) :hihi:

[Turtle]

Isn't "Biblical Archeology" an oxymoron? :evil: :shrug: :hihi:

 

No, it is not. Neither, however, is it evidence of God any more than finding Troy by reading Homer is a proof of Zeus. :)

:hihi:

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