Space

[amidst]

Is it possible that infinite space has always existed even before any event like the big bang or other that gave rise to matter being formed took place, in other words did space exist way before any matter formed. Surly if you removed all matter from the universe we would still be left with space.

[sanctus]

After current theory not really, one way to see it is that space-time can be defined as the places where events can happen, if you have no energy no events cannot happen --> no space-time.

[coldcreation]

The idea that the universe is (or is not) spatiotemporally infinite has been the subject of active debate.

 

The question of what happened before the ‘beginning’ has very often been shrugged off as irrelevant, as it is often speculated that there was no time or space to even think about.

 

In the language of geometry, the void is a spacetime that contains no points: i.e., there is no spacetime, no language of geometry.

 

It would characterize absolutely “nothing.”

 

The ‘nothingness’ prior to the creation of the universe is considered (by several specialists) as the most complete void imaginable—no space, no time, no matter, no radiation, no light, no darkness, no temperature, no dimensions, no size, no vacuum, no energy, no pressure, no force, no particles, no fluctuation, no density, no mass, no general relativity, no quantum mechanics, no thermodynamics, no laws of nature, no order, no disorder, no universe, no God, no organizing Wit, and no Astrophysical Journals—the empty set—as referred to by mathematicians.

 

Because all scientific theories are formulated on a spacetime manifold, all explosion theories break down before the colossal creation (destruction) event, ab irato.

 

Hence, because of the impossibility to predict any events before time t = 0, they are simply cut out of the theories; swept under the carpet.

 

With the clock ticking from Ground Zero onward (an epoch nearly resembling a scene out of Dante’s Inferno), the spacescape seems somewhat standard in comparison with whatever was (or wasn’t) before.

 

That’s the surface picture. Beneath the surface, there is a difference between normalcy and the appearance of normalcy. :)

 

 

 

CC

[CraigD]

That space in the absence of observable particles is effectively non-existent – which I think paraphrases post #2 and 3 – is, IMHO, correct. However, it’s important to note that modern physics doesn’t describe a perfect vacuum as truly being absent of particles, but rather consisting of a “sea” of usually undetectable virtual particles. Accordingly, the space that existed before the Big Bang (or whatever you want to call the beginning of our matter and energy-containing universe, if you believe it had a beginning) has never been absent of particles, so has in the formalism of quantum physics always “existed”. In theory (that is, according to one of the better accepted ones) the Big Bang was simply an unlikely (but, given enough time, inevitable) great fluctuation of the state of the virtual particles of the primordial vacuum.

 

It’s important to note that these particles are not merely intellectual abstractions, like the famous ”angels on the head of a pin” idea of middle ages theology. These virtual particle can and have been experimentally detected via experiments such as ones measuring the Casimir effect.

 

All this hints, to me, at a more fundamental theory of how the vacuum has virtual particles. Despite a couple of generations of pursuit of such theories producing arguable more literature and mathematical formalism than any one person could hope to master, these theories appear to me to be in their pre-infancies. We can only hope that we humans and our understanding-aiding tools are capable of successfully inventing such a theory, while being comforted that science shows no sign of becoming boring any time soon. :)

[amidst]

WOW......thanks guys for your wonderfull replies, you've given me a load more gum to chew on. Please dont take this post the wrong way i dont want you to think i'm going against the grain and don't appreciate your help because i really do. Now then this big bang theory thingy, sorry, cant accept or live with that idea, it's the sort of thing i would try to explain to my young children because it sounds magical and it's a bit of a cop out. Now when i say i don't accept the big bang theory i dont totally dismiss it, i think it would be very reasonable and obvious to say there was some kind of bang or fluctuation that led to the creation of all matter and life , but to say it created space and time as well is IMO illogical and total rubbish. Time is IMO a totally human concept and should be ignored, time has no substance and plays no role in the creation of the universe. As for the big bang also creating space, well......this is just not logical in any shape or form, for something to expand it must have something to expand into like......erm... Space, oh yer that will do nicely, it would therefore be reasonable to say that infinite space always existed before any event that led to the creation of matter, space does not require a beginning or end, that's just another human concept . You know i feel very comfortable living with the fact that space is infinite and has always existed and always will, after all space is space, you know... it's just there, it does not require an explanation, even if absolutely nothing and i mean absolutely nothing existed in the universe there would still be space,along with, total darkness, and absolute zero. But we all know this can't possibly be true, something quite obviously existed in the space, the question is what. It's been well quoted that even if you create a complete vacuum, there is still something in the vacuum, well i'm going to make a guess here and say.... Electricity !!...... no..no.. no.. not electricity in the sense that some of us may perceive it, what i mean is the invisible ghostly force that drives it, this is something that is not fully understood but it must exist, and i truly believe this to be one of the fundamental or possibly only force that existed in the space prior to the creation of matter i also think some of this force converted itself into the matter we observe in the universe. So what caused this conversion to happen you may ask, well i'm going to say intelligence, yep this ghostly force evolved intelligence, why?, because it had potential, it then began to manufacture and spew out particles that eventually led to whole atoms being formed, oh.. wow.... now..... were cooking, next gases begin to form possibly hydrogen, ooooh... i can feel an explosion coming on. So matter and stars are eventualy created and all the elements follow, and the best thing of all life . So what happened to all that ghostly invisible force, well.... it's all around you everything you see, touch, smell, eat, all matter is buzzing with an electrical charge created from this single mysterious force. Did all of this force convert into matter, unlikely, there's still plenty of potential out there, Hmmm Dark matter.

[sanctus]

If you define spcae-time as I did in my post, there is no problem, before the big-bang there was no place where events could happen so no space-time, after space-time started to grow (quick if you believe in inflation) because events could happen in more and more places. I do not see anything magic/illogic/rubish there.

Eventually it is just on how you define space-time, what is your definition?

[amidst]

If you define spcae-time as I did in my post, there is no problem, before the big-bang there was no place where events could happen so no space-time, after space-time started to grow (quick if you believe in inflation) because events could happen in more and more places. I do not see anything magic/illogic/rubish there.

Eventually it is just on how you define space-time, what is your definition?

 

Hi Sanctus and thanks for your reply. My previous post was my philosophical view of how the universe may have began, and remains to be the only way my mind can accept such event's, but as always i am keen to learn and understand other theories and ideas. The BB theory as i understand states that everything including space ,time, and matter came from a singularity, a point so small, it would be almost impossible or impossible to imagine it, yet according to the theory such a thing did exist, and anything that existed or rather did not exist before the BB is totaly ignored and discounted, in other words there was NOTHING !... Well the only way i can make sense of absolute nothing in the manner you define "nothing" would be to say to myself, what was it like before i was born?, or what will it be like after i die?, the answer to the latter would be easy it would be the same as what it was like before i was born. So it could be said that the universe only exist's if we are here to observe it. Sorry to be rather morbid there it was just a thought that suddenly occurred to me while writing this. So the singularity was nothing... came from nothing....yet somehow was something, and this is the bit i just cant grasp, how can you turn nothing into something? did the singularity always infinitly exist? or did it just quite suddenly come into existence out of nothing, and if there was nothing surrounding the singularity, how could it expand or inflate into that nothing?. Well to answer your question what is my definition of space time is....... Well i dont have one of space and time, i only have one of Space, because i feel quite sure space and time do not exist together. So my defination of space is, something that has always infinitly existed, and always will, pure empty space is in effect nothing, nothing and empty space are the same thing, that's what pure empty space is, it's nothing, and because it has no begining or end to it's existance, and no begining or end to it's dimensions time cannot possibly exist, it's totaly stagnant. Time is an emotional human concepttion, what we feel and sense of time is the period between one event to to the next event like night and day, oh and we devised clocks based on our solar system to help us keep track of this time thingy we feel and sense, NOT space time, the universe knows nothing of time. If you in any way can help me understand the before and begining of the BB theory and maybe even convert me that would be great.

[sanctus]

Well, taking a Lorentz transformation (i.e. the one you get when chaanging reference frame in SR) you mix the time components with the spatial components. Since SR is well founded/verified by experiments, on can say that space and time are very very likely linked so you get space-time.

Time is an emotional human concepttion, what we feel and sense of time is the period between one event to to the next event like night and day, oh and we devised clocks based on our solar system to help us keep track of this time thingy we feel and sense, NOT space time, the universe knows nothing of time.

You give exactly also one of the current defintion in physics of time: the period between two events. If time was only a human conception wouldn't it imply that everything could be simultaneous, that there would be no cause-effect? Solar system to define time or acceleration of galaxies moving away or decay time of given atom or ... doesn't relly matter how you design clocks, they all will assign a quantity to a time period between two events, hence measure time.

So my defination of space is, something that has always infinitly existed, and always will,

This is not really a defintion for example "the fact that 2+2=4" has also always existed and always will, but the equation is not space. And empty space does not exist there are always quantum-fluctuations anyway...