Finally switched to linux... what now?

[enorbet2]

Hello

The short answer is "Yes, I'd be happy to go over. contribute, whatever to a kernel building tutorial". Ih yeah, sorry to take so long to get back but the auto email notification only triggers once, and I'm relatively new to this forum and didn't know. I have run Slackware as my main OpSys for many years and built many kernels from vanilla source. The best part about that is that to do it well one has to prepare the proper environment for building and developing. There are many bonuses to organizing in this manner.

 

I also have run what used to be Corel Linux, the debian based distro that M$ tried to buy out, for a few versions and then purchased it's successor, now called Xandros, just so I could speak intelligently about Debian package based Linux and benefit educationally by seeing how it's then excellent hardware detection set configs up. Also if you aren;t a newb at something you aren't learning anything new. I bought versions 1 through 4 but have since dropped out due to their focus on Enterprise systems, poor customer service for desktops, and caving into Microsoft deals. I haven't yet replaced it on hard drive since it still functions quite well but because they no longer develop new kernel packages for v4 I had to learn how to create a "Xandrosified" kernel config and it is more hassle than it's worth. I now run Kubuntu on a thumbdrive for Debian info and at some point will likely replace Xandros on hard drive unless I grow even more fond of 64Studio which I have on a dedicated box for AV work.

 

Sorry to be so "wordy" but I know of no other way to demonstrate that when I say vanilla building is fairly easy and very worthwhile it isn't because I'm unaware of the alternatives or a masochistic purist, even though I have a dedicated OS/2 Warp 4.5 box that still gets use. Bottom line, learning to build from vanilla source insures you can't get left behind with little or no support as long as Open Source exists and it is doing very well, especially in a tight economy.

[alexander]

ok, i'll write something up

 

i was never a big fan of xandros, but i have done gentoo (for 2 years including installing it on many machines that came through our GLUG), slackware, lfs, red hat, cent, fedora, suse, ubuntu (generally xubuntu, but i think i've installed them all kubuntu, edubuntu, the media edition and server, and i wont mention how many times i've installed regular ubu, mainly because of some of the projects i've done with it)...

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

9.04 buggy on the install.....my two cents wait for 9.10:(

 

Installing a third hard drive here so's I can play with pure Debian, HURD and (somehow Ubu. related) Xen.....of course there's debugging to be done with my 9.04 Ubu. install but I don't see why I shouldn't have a little fun while I'm at it....'sides I'm just goin to replace it with Ubu. Studio 9.04 mit zee realtime kernel anywayz :shrug:

[Southtown]

Anybody here tried Arch? Like it? I dig that it's as clean as Gentoo but without the compile time. Similar flexibility also through makepkg.conf when you do compile, I think, haven't messed with it.

 

My conky:

 

[enorbet2]

Ping Southtown

 

If you like clean there really is none cleaner than Slackware without going to BSD. v12.2 just came out and it is excellent as always. I'll share a quote from a serious geek who had tried some baker's dozen of distros, even while he was on dialup and that's dedication!, when asked why he stuck with Slackware "Stuff just compiles right". Anyway check it out The Slackware Linux Project . It even is available as a DVD iso on some fat pipes.

[Southtown]

Yeah thanks for the tip. I actually was downloading the dvd iso last week but cancelled because I had a fresh install of arch to play with and it was getting late. But since you recommend it I'll look into it. I tried installing slack last year, but for some reason I ran into problems, I can't remember what. I'm still learning, ask alex. He pointed me to gentoo as a starter about a year ago. :hihi:

 

PS I actually dig the idea of no package manager. wget-tar-make, am I right?

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Yup the various issues discussed at Ubu. forums are present.....hmmmmmm......no sir I don't like it....... nope not'tall:(.....mostly minor inconveniences.....stupid crap like failure to boot properly..if at all....dependencies not met (which ones not specified nor suggested nor provided)....clicky clicky issues (clickin corners don't necessarily close out what you were using (I hate to call em windows for fairly obvious reasons))....etc.etc. ...anywayz if yer really really patient you can git it working reasonably well.....still worried bout an "Unknown program still running" message when logging out:confused:

[Southtown]

Talking about arch? or slack?

[enorbet2]

First off I'm reasonably certain "DefinitelyDisturbed" was referring to new Ubuntu. Secondly, "No, wget-make won't cut it" or at least it won't unless you set it uip to do so but I wouldn't do that and lose the actual advantage that comes from eschewing a package manager. Package managers are by definition automated and that means they are essentially dumb, completely ignorant of your desires and plans, and capable of wholesale breakage because they slavishly "upgrade" all dependent libraries ((also known as threads since they are used by many apps and processes thus "mulitthreading") built into the one app you're attempting to install. Admittedly they've gotten pretty good since the earlier versions of debs and rpms and Gentoo's "emerge" system sidesteps many of those problems but actually to little advantage.

 

The design imperative of Slackware, the oldest distro still running, evolved largely through the vision of one man, instead of a committee, following the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) method which sets up an environment that adheres to the generic organization behind original Linux (even within the vanilla kernel itself) to create the most compatible development environment short of BSD. For example numerous efforts create new directories or go against standards (such as "'usr/local/" as the default non-root location for non-shared apps) sometimes only to stand apart or to appear "new and improved" and risk large scale breakage while handling dependencies. Slackware's philosophy is to give you a huge number of apps, libraries and windowmanagers/desktops to select from during install, all which have been thoroughly compiled and tested together at the time of release, and create the best possible environment to compile and install new ones with little concern for glitz and originality (originality is left for you to do) but major emphasis on compatibility, speed and stability.

 

NOTE: to see just how large this repository is, from slackware.com fo to "Get Slack" choose a site and instead of going directly to the iso go to the "Slackware" folder within the version you want. and there see the many helpful "TXT" files but especially "Packages.txt" and "Filelist.txt" . I think you will be impressed and that's just the beginning.

 

Building additional packages in Slack is generally done by downloading the vanilla source tar file (no waiting for someone else to make it into a package for your flavor of distro) and following instruction in the "INSTALL" file which you will find in the parent directory of the untarred download. Most often this is "./configure", "make" and "make install" or better "checkinstall" which makes any of 3 kinds of packages including "slackpacks". If you run into any problems or dependency issues these can be solved by running "make test" "make check" or any number of other helpful possibilities open to you once you get accustomed to "rolling your own".

 

I don't care if this sounds "over your head" because of course it does since you've likely never done it. What I do care about is whether or not this sounds like the level of control, speed, and stability you'd enjoy. If it does I'd be happy to message you my email addy and walk you through it or, if there's enough interest, open a new thread.

 

Best wishes

[Southtown]

Not quite over my head, getting close, though. I seem to remember doing that once or twice inadvertently before I learned that it was bad practice when using a distro that employs a package manager. I am re-downloading the 12.2 dvd and will give it another go. It does sound like something I'm interested in because I want to understand linux better. I seem to tinker with it more than actually I use it.

[Southtown]

Yup the various issues discussed at Ubu. forums are present.....hmmmmmm......no sir I don't like it....... nope not'tall:(.....mostly minor inconveniences.....stupid crap like failure to boot properly..if at all....dependencies not met (which ones not specified nor suggested nor provided)....clicky clicky issues (clickin corners don't necessarily close out what you were using (I hate to call em windows for fairly obvious reasons))....etc.etc. ...anywayz if yer really really patient you can git it working reasonably well.....still worried bout an "Unknown program still running" message when logging out:confused:

Come to think of it, I think I had issues too. I might not have even got it installed... Hafta try again real quick before I install slack and get back to ya.

[alexander]

also known as threads

i've never heard them called that, and i wont argue that they might be called that, but generally when someone refers to threads, its a completely different thing they are referring to (Threading)

 

Gentoo's "emerge" system

Gentoo's PMS is called Portage and it totally rocks, actually imho its still the best pms of any i've ever used, and i've used apt (ubu), ports(bsd), yum(cent, fc), yack(suse), fink(os x), rpm(rh), dpkg(ubu/deb for individual debs), partly because it's so configurable and versatile, maybe its because it runs on dark magic?

emerge -vuDa world ;)

 

Slackware... its a pain in the butt distro to run, because it has no packaging system, any time you want to install anything nonstandard or new, you have to go all old school.

 

here's the algorithm for old school software installation:

 

10 download the source (if its a dependency, make sure you download the right version of it)

20 unpackage

30 go into directory

40 run ./config

50 find dependencies you do not have

60 foreach dependency repeat 10-50 and run make && make install

70 pray that every package compiles properly

80 if the ./config finally returns an all go run make && make install

 

but ofcourse this algorithm has flaws, if the program does not have a ./config, you may have to run a make before you find out which dependencies are actually missing. similarly this may happen with your dependencies. sometimes dependencies wont compile properly, or wont run or will break something else, in which case, many times you have to do inner conflict resolution. and there's ofcourse compile times, they are not bad for something like xmms or mplayer, but if you want the latest openoffice, that's 4-6 hours of compile time on a quad core....

 

so much simpler with a PMS, and thats why i like portage, i can install all the packages and compile them, but i can choose to use binaries of something i just dont care to compile, etc. Also that entire hunting process generally narrows down to "emerge -va package" or "apt-get install package" or since debian packages are so popular download the deb and do "dpkg package.deb" simpler, faster, more modern world-like :confused:

 

but for more experienced of you, i am not discouraging running a pain in the neck distro, but if going to slacks, why not make your own distribution with LFS (Linux From Scratch)?

[Southtown]

Gentoo's PMS is called Portage and it totally rocks, actually imho its still the best pms of any i've ever used, and i've used apt (ubu), ports(bsd), yum(cent, fc), yack(suse), fink(os x), rpm(rh), dpkg(ubu/deb for individual debs)

Have you tried pacman yet?

 

Slackware... its a pain in the butt distro to run, because it has no packaging system, any time you want to install anything nonstandard or new, you have to go all old school.

Yeah, I'm in it for the learning experience. I'm feeling cocky having tackled gentoo and arch.

 

i am not discouraging running a pain in the neck distro, but if going to slacks, why not make your own distribution with LFS (Linux From Scratch)?

Woah baby steps man. :confused: Thanks for the tip, though. I hadn't heard of that one yet. That one will definitely hafta be next.

[alexander]

LFS is not even really a distro, and it is rather hard to do, you start with building a kernel and a boot loader, compiler, essentials, eventually you install the shell, not unlike tackling gentoo, but without portage and that nifty gentoo essentials pack :confused:. The mangement and logging software, etc, etc, nothing is pre-packaged, you have to build everything yourself, and manually build from source ;) though you could do that and then install and configure portage and then have and have installed a PMS...

[Southtown]

Yup the various issues discussed at Ubu. forums are present.....hmmmmmm......no sir I don't like it....... nope not'tall:(.....mostly minor inconveniences.....stupid crap like failure to boot properly..if at all....dependencies not met (which ones not specified nor suggested nor provided)....clicky clicky issues (clickin corners don't necessarily close out what you were using (I hate to call em windows for fairly obvious reasons))....etc.etc. ...anywayz if yer really really patient you can git it working reasonably well.....still worried bout an "Unknown program still running" message when logging out:confused:

Yeah, no matter what I choose from the menu of the livecd, all I get is:

 

Firmware bug: powernow-k8: Your BIOS does not provide ACPI-PSS objects in a way that Linux understands...

 

...a bunch of times. Then it dumps me at an initramfs prompt. There are other error messages before the menu, too, but they flash so fast I haven't read them.

 

LFS is not even really a distro, and it is rather hard to do, you start with building a kernel and a boot loader, compiler, essentials, eventually you install the shell, not unlike tackling gentoo, but without portage and that nifty gentoo essentials pack :confused:. The mangement and logging software, etc, etc, nothing is pre-packaged, you have to build everything yourself, and manually build from source ;) though you could do that and then install and configure portage and then have and have installed a PMS...

It's way over my head from what I read online so far. It will be a long time before I feel read-up enough to attempt it.

[enorbet2]

Warning Funky Quote ahead - I'm still heavily under antihistamines and feeling drowsy yet somehow feisty

 

QuoteQuote:

Originally Posted by enorbet

also known as threads EndQuoteQuote

 

Quote - Alexander - i've never heard them called that, and i wont argue that they might be called that, but generally when someone refers to threads, its a completely different thing they are referring to (Threading) - EndQuote

 

HaHa! Yeah I figured you'd call me on that one Alexander and certainly I'm guilty of oversimplification but it does functionally illustrate the point. I hadn't wanted to get into a full discourse on the vast differences between how different and supposedly multithreading OpSyses handle sharing of libraries or even really how amazing Linux is, having evolved from Unix, built from the ground up as a multi-user, and it's extension, networking environment, in that, unlike Windows which requires that some files be placed in the Windows directory (or within it's subdirectories) and described in the "all eggs in one unwieldy basket" Registry, Linux apps are much more stand-alone. Anyway technically, shared libraries are not threads, they just make calls for them.

 

An example of this, albeit a consciously decided upon one designed for market domination rather than function since it actually slowed it down, was how M$ divided up Explorer dependencies and placed them within numerous DLLs to theoretically make it impossible (actually just a pita) process to remove Internet Explorer. If one simply removed all of IE's dependent libraries, other stuff wouldn't run. In order to remove IE one had to replace said DLLs with older pre-spliced ones. Incidentally "98Lite" and "Revenge of Mozilla" did make for a pretty awesome gaming platform - reasonably lean and fairly mean. I still have such a box to play "Terminal Velocity", original "Quake" and derivatives, "Duke Nukem 3D" and "Road Rash".

 

I actually am quite familiar with multithreading since anyone who noticed I still run OS/2 (v2.0 was my first ever GUI back in the day) which was the very first pre-emptive, multi-tasking, multi-threading, fully 32 bit OpSys and which incidentally was completely written in Assembly, right on-the-metal and just blazingly fast and incredibly scaleable. After v2.2 , v3 came out, also called Warp 3, the split with co-partner on the project, Microsoft (tiny and limp?) occurred because Billy and the Boys wanted to violate "pre-emptive" and give programs direct access to Hardware. IBM reacted in horror since that was in no way acceptable in mission-critical work so M$ renamed "MicroSoft OS/2 v3: New Technology" to "Microsoft Windows NT V 3" and the BSOD was officially born. As Alexander's linked wiki page notes, different OpSyses handle them differently. Please note that both OS/2 and Linux are POSIX based systems.

 

So while I know the actual mechanics I'd still rather answer functionally and simply in a thread that is obviously for those new to Linux which inherently means to people less accustomed to having to know how their systems work since Windows "chauffers them around" rather than "handing them the keys". So, while it has gotten rarer, package management systems that handle dependencies for you can break systems NOT in the sense of requiring total reinstall like Windows but broken enough that many recent Windows migraters will think they have to reinstall. But the more important issue is that if you use such package managers that handle dependencies for you, not only have you relinquished control but you are guilty of trying to make Linux identical to Windows but better, an impossibility. It can't be equal to and greater than at the same time.

 

It is not true that Slackware has no package management. "Pkgtool" is the manager and "Slackpacks" are the packages. It's just that Slackware's system expects you to have a properly functioning system as installed (especially if you install everything as recommended) or better, labels the packs for Slack version (even though many will work on many versions and trying them out will break absolutely nothing and are easily removed). Many distros employing the same basic packaging system arbitrarily make them proprietary by virtue of making them incompatible with other similarly based systems. Example - Mandake, now Mandriva, started essentially as RedHat compiled for 586 instead of 386 by default. Soon they changed what directories were used, and invented new ones for no good reason other than marketing. Haven't you seen how software companies offer apps for free for a limited time to suck you in and then go pay only or cripple the free version?

Slackware has no ambitions at the very least at this time, to become the next get rich Windows.

 

Slackware has been my main OpSys for several years now, getting roughly 70% of my computer time, and if not for gaming 90% with the last 10% only due to experimentation and information gathering so I can know what I'm talking about. I use my computer(s) a lot and love to install new stuff as much as anyone. It is common that I will install numerous apps that do essentially the same thing ie: Amarok, Aqualung, XMMS, Xine, NoAtun, MPlayer, etc , etc and it is indeed very rare that I have to go through more steps than ",/configure&&make", su "Checkinstall". Those few times are most often only on cutting edge stuff, often unavailable yet as packages for any distro, and well worth it considering it earns a more compatible, more stable system and one which does only exactly what I tell it, no more and no less, forcing me to be knowledgeable where it counts. It is absolutely untrue that in Slackware compiling a dependency for one thing will break anything else. Can't happen in Slack! Period. Dependencies? What steenking dependencies?

 

I rarely even use Slackpacks, preferring to build them but they work just fine.

 

So if you want some "modern" SUV with automatic transmission, power steering, power brakes, an engine hidden by cowls you can't work on or tune and live at the mercy of factory callbacks, that's cool. I'll still prefer a 427 Cobra with four-on-the-floor, rack & pinion steering, disc brakes, all of which I can tune, repair, upgrade and/or replace knowing every nut and bolt. If you think Slack is a pita you still haven't either tried it recently or at least just scanned "Packages.txt" to see just how much comes in it.

 

Alexander, I feel certain that you have sufficient resources to install it and likely know what to do when first boot takes you to the far safer CLI instead of directly to X, bypassing login, and depending on "sudo" so I challenge you. Try v12.2 and benchmark whatever you like and see if Gentoo really is superior. Even though I tried Gentoo in 2006, I'll happily install the latest this coming weekend, and honestly report my findings here after whatever timeframe of usage you prefer as long as you do the same. What say you?

[Southtown]

LOL! Go easy on the dude, enorbet. He owes me a kernel tut. :hyper: