Where do the Neutrons come from to form the Neutron star?

[Pluto]

Moderation Note: The following 10 posts have been moved from Origin of the Universe,,,,Bang or no Bang in favor of having their own topic here

 

G'day maddog

 

I'm fully awear of most of the element formations within and outer envelope of the Stars.

 

The question is this:

 

Where does the Neutrons come from to form the Neutron star?

 

That would also answer the mechansim.

 

Also forgive my English, in actual fact its not my English the problem, its my dislexia. That's life.

[modest]

While I can find no theoretical or observational support for Pluto’s idea that neutron stars or black holes just spit degenerate matter out in their disks and jets, I find the question of what would happen if you could remove degenerate matter from a super-dense object like a neutron star an interesting one. Once it is no longer part of a large mass, a lump of matter like neutronium is essentially the enormous nucleus of a nameless unstable element, and should fission like mad. Would it emit free neutrons, which would each beta decay in about 1 minute to produce an atom of hydrogen, or would it do something more exotic? The question is way over my head. :) :eek2:

 

Yeah! :)

 

I propose... The free neutrons would decay to protons and electrons—a process that would only be stopped by the formation of deuterium which could capture free neutrons before they decay. The decay of free neutrons will happen at an energy too high for protons and neutrons to combine forming deuterium, so... Depending on how quickly it's allowed to cool (or how quickly it's pulled out of the gravity well, I suppose), you'd either end up with pure hydrogen (if all the neutrons are allowed to decay) or some combination of hydrogen and helium.

 

While I have no (well, virtually no) understanding of the physics needed to come to this conclusion, I do recognize the situation is indistinguishable from big bang nucleosynthesis.

Big Bang Nucleosynthesis

Which has, of course, been well-modeled. We stand on the shoulders of giants ;)

Where does the Neutrons come from to form the Neutron star?

If you squeeze a proton and an electron together tight-enough you will get a neutron. This is called electron capture. According to wikipedia... that's what happens.

Neutron degeneracy is analogous to electron degeneracy and is demonstrated in neutron stars, which are supported by the pressure from a degenerate neutron gas. This happens when a stellar core above 1.44 solar masses (the Chandrasekhar limit) collapses and is not halted by the degenerate electrons. As the star collapses, the Fermi energy of the electrons increases to the point where it is energetically favorable for them to combine with protons to produce neutrons (via inverse beta decay, also termed "neutralization" and electron capture). The result of this collapse is an extremely compact star composed of nuclear matter, which is dominantly a degenerate neutron gas, sometimes called neutronium, with a small admixture of degenerate proton and electron gases.

 

Degenerate matter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

~modest

[Pluto]

G'day Modest

 

I know how Neutrons form.

 

Thats not the question.

 

The question is where do the Neutrons come from to form a Neutron core as in Neutron Star after or during a supernova.

[freeztar]

The question is where do the Neutrons come from to form a Neutron core as in Neutron Star after or during a supernova.

 

Did you read the last quoted section by Modest? It does a great job of explaining how they form in a collapsing star, which is the same as "where they come from".

[modest]

Thats not the question.

 

The question is where do the Neutrons come from to form a Neutron core as in Neutron Star after or during a supernova.

 

Uh-huh... where the neutrons come from...

 

Well, a neutron star comes from a normal (albeit slightly massive) star. The normal star collapses into a neutron star. Normal stars are made of neutrons, protons, and electrons. Neutron stars are made of neutrons. So... this is what happens...

 

Normal star ---> Neutron star

neutrons, protons, electrons ----> neutrons

 

Where did all the protons and electrons go? They combined and turned into neutrons. To answer your question as directly as possible: the neutrons of a neutron star come from the mass of the parent star. The parent star creates the daughter star, and... that’s where babies come from :)

 

Honestly Pluto, I’m not exactly sure what you’re getting at.

 

~modest

[Pluto]

G'day from the land of ozzzz

 

Modest its a bit more complicated than that.

 

 

Stars in their life time form many elements upto and including Fe and Zn. Leave the heavier elements out of the equation for now.

 

The Fe, Zn Si etc are a few of the elements that tend to accumulate, over billions of years.

 

This is where it becomes questionable.

 

The core in normal stars tends to control the size of the solar envelope by controlling turbulence and stopping the plasma from expanding.

 

The core also controls the amount of heat been released to the outer layers, they say it takes a million years or more for the heat to travel from the core to the outer layer.

 

Anyway over billions of years the core loses mass and therefore cannot hold the solar enevelope and allows a giant star to grow.

 

Not only that the control of energy released from the core goes out of control releasing high amunts of energy and this in conjuntion with pinching of magnetic fields sends high energy plasma at the speed of light breaking down Fe and other elements that have taken billions of years to form. This process of photodistintergration Breaks down atoms such as Fe to He to H to Neutrons. In the process creating a zone for Neutron matter to remain stable and accumulate at an extreme rate. Leaving behind a Neutron Core.

 

If there is enough matter, the next transition maybe possible.

That is the merging of Neutrons.

 

The next theoretical transition is the compaction of quarks and their composites.

 

and so it keeps on going to Neutrinos and the so called Preon particles. This is as close as you get to the so called singularity, a pin head could hold the size and mass of our sun.

 

Somewhere in the process forms a condensed matter that is able to create vector fields that not even EMR can escape, but by another mechansim.

[modest]

Pluto, I understand you want to tie photodisintegration, supernova, jets, and other such astronomical processes to an unchanging / recycling cosmos, but a lot of what you are saying is very inconsistent with well-established scientific theory.

 

Your arguments do not support your conclusions and your links don't support your arguments. It has consistently dragged this thread off the topic of "the origin of the universe" to the subject of degenerate matter, compact objects, and the like and you've been unable to tie the subjects together.

 

So, when your suspension is up in a week it would be best if you started a thread on the subject of compact objects, degenerate matter, jets, or whatever it is specifically you'd like to investigate. I think that would be all-around best.

 

~modest

[maddog]

I'm fully awear of most of the element formations within and outer envelope of the Stars.

 

The question is this:

 

Where does the Neutrons come from to form the Neutron star?

 

That would also answer the mechansim.

 

Also forgive my English, in actual fact its not my English the problem, its my dislexia. That's life.

 

I know how Neutrons form.

 

Thats not the question.

 

The question is where do the Neutrons come from to form a Neutron core as in Neutron Star after or during a supernova.

 

To both of these you must carefully read Modest's post #737, #740. I don't think I could make this any clearer. I would say these are these objects (Neutron Stars) are

the final blast of the Supernovae event. That is what produces the energy to smash

an electron and a proton together to produce the neutron.

 

Yes, this process happens to the Whole star in a single event (moment) producing

the "baby" neutron star as Modest says.

 

maddog

[maddog]

This is where it becomes questionable.

Where specifically does questionability lie ? Can you be specific ?

 

The core also controls the amount of heat been released to the outer layers, they say it takes a million years or more for the heat to travel from the core to the outer layer. Anyway over billions of years the core loses mass and therefore cannot hold the solar enevelope and allows a giant star to grow.

No question here. This is true for the "normal" life of a star.

 

Not only that the control of energy released from the core goes out of control releasing high amunts of energy and this in conjuntion with pinching of magnetic fields sends high energy plasma at the speed of light breaking down Fe and other elements that have taken billions of years to form. This process of photodistintergration Breaks down atoms such as Fe to He to H to Neutrons. In the process creating a zone for Neutron matter to remain stable and accumulate at an extreme rate. Leaving behind a Neutron Core.

This is not accurate. You may have a photodisintegration process which does break down elements say upto Iron (Fe) down to less heavier ones. This does not produce any magnitude of mass on the order a star. They happen mostly near the sun spots

when the high magnitude current flow in/out of one producing the prominences that

become solar flares.

 

If there is enough matter, the next transition maybe possible.

That is the merging of Neutrons.

Only by Supernovae explosions which BTW produce all the elements heavier the Iron

(Fe).

 

The next theoretical transition is the compaction of quarks and their composites.

At the moment it is thought the mass limit for a Supernovae to produce a "quark star"

is more than that to produce a Black Hole so this process is skipped and so we would

only see Black Holes.

 

... and so it keeps on going to Neutrinos and the so called Preon particles. This is as close as you get to the so called singularity, a pin head could hold the size and mass of our sun.

This does not keep going. Neutrinos are Leptons and are release all the time from

Nuclearsynthetic processes going on in a star. I know of no such particle as "Preon".

 

Somewhere in the process forms a condensed matter that is able to create vector fields that not even EMR can escape, but by another mechansim.

I am not sure what this refers too. However, the ONLY thing that prevent "EMR" being

Electromagnetic Radiation is a Black Holes gravity well. I must assume this is the

"another mechanism" you are referring to.

 

maddog

[Pluto]

G'day from the land of ozzzzzzzz

 

Than Modest please explain how Neutrons are formed and collected into the core to make a Neutron star.

 

As for strange claims, they are not my claims.

 

To understand the universe one needs to understand the make up and the workings of the parts.

[modest]

Than Modest please explain how Neutrons are formed and collected into the core to make a Neutron star.

 

This question has already been answered.

 

If you squeeze a proton and an electron together tight-enough you will get a neutron. This is called

electron capture

. According to wikipedia... that's what happens.

Neutron degeneracy is analogous to electron degeneracy and is demonstrated in neutron stars, which are supported by the pressure from a degenerate neutron gas. This happens when a stellar core above 1.44 solar masses (the Chandrasekhar limit) collapses and is not halted by the degenerate electrons. As the star collapses, the Fermi energy of the electrons increases to the point where it is energetically favorable for them to combine with protons to produce neutrons (via inverse beta decay, also termed "neutralization" and electron capture). The result of this collapse is an extremely compact star composed of nuclear matter, which is dominantly a degenerate neutron gas, sometimes called neutronium, with a small admixture of degenerate proton and electron gases.

 

Degenerate matter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Normal star ---> Neutron star

neutrons, protons, electrons ----> neutrons

 

Where did all the protons and electrons go? They combined and turned into neutrons. To answer your question as directly as possible: the neutrons of a neutron star come from the mass of the parent star. The parent star creates the daughter star

 

In simple terms... right here:

As the star collapses

, the Fermi energy of the electrons increases to the point where it is energetically favorable for them to combine with protons to

produce neutrons (via inverse beta decay, also termed "neutralization" and electron capture

).

The result

of this collapse is an extremely compact star composed of nuclear matter, which

is

dominantly a degenerate neutron gas, sometimes called

neutronium

 

~modest

[maddog]

Than Modest please explain how Neutrons are formed and collected into the core to make a Neutron star.

 

As for strange claims, they are not my claims.

 

To understand the universe one needs to understand the make up and the workings of the parts.

To your [italicized] comments I agree. However, Modest, CraigD and myself have already answered this question. What else more can we say ? :) :eek2:

 

maddog

[Pluto]

G'day from the land of ozzzzzz

 

The answer that you have given is general science. Please I know and understand your science, its basic.

 

The process by which the Neutrons are formed during a supernova has not been answered.

 

What triggers that sudden process to form Neutrons and what keeps them stable within the core. What are the properties of a Neutron matrix. Do they form magnetic fields and if these magnetic field connect, what is the result?

 

Why not protons?

Why are Neutrons used instead of protons?

Do quarks form?

[sanctus]

Last question first: quarks are always already there in the baryons present in the star they are not formed in a process.

 

I think one can say that the gravitational collapse is the trigger to form a neutron star, when the fusion reaction inside the star stops, gravity starts to do what it can best (and actually also the only thing it can do :-)) to attract everything to center, for a while there is the electron degeneracy pressure (another name for the Pauli exclusion principle at work) resisting the compression, since gravity tries to put more and more electrons to the same state, which since they are fermions is resisted to. But if the gravitational force is big enough then the electrons degeneracy pressure is not strong enough and it costs less energy to make an inverse beta decay where you have the reaction:

[math]p+e^- \rightarrow n +\nu_e[/math]

then if the gravitational is not too big it will be this neutron degeneracy pressure which arises now (also neutrons are fermions...) which stops the collapsing of the star and a neutron star is born.

 

If this does not answer your question, then you have to reformulate it more clearly, because in 3 we already tried everyone in his/her own words to answer...

[Pyrotex]

...The process by which the Neutrons are formed during a supernova has not been answered. What triggers that sudden process to form Neutrons and what keeps them stable within the core...?

Pluto,

you are being dense.

 

almost as dense as a neutron star.

 

The process you ask for is: Gravitational Collapse

 

What triggers formation of neutrons?: Gravity. Intense gravity.

 

What keeps them stable?: Gravity. Really freakin intense gravity.

 

What part of this "situation" do you not understand?: The gravity.

 

Better now? :)

[Pluto]

G'day from the land of ozzzzz

 

Pyrotex please leave the dense insults out of the equation.

 

Intense gravity is already there. The mass has not altered.

 

Gravity by itself is not the answer.

 

What is the trigger?

 

The process is more complicated than simple gravity answer.

 

Gravity is only part of the process.

 

Magnetic reconnection is the other part.

 

The other issue is this.

 

What allows the Star over billions of years to expand into a red giant than form a Supernova or even a Nova?

[sanctus]

Yep, gravity is always there you are right, but it has an opposing force due to the nuclear reactions in the core of the star. When the fuel runs out there is no more any opposing force to gravity (at least until you get to electron degeneracy pressure). So, ok, if you want the running out of fuel is the trigger...