New music is meaningless

[Boof-head]

I think Eminem's someone who has recognised the hypocisy of the entertainment industry - there must be absolutely zero execs with music appreciation.

 

More likely they have a better appreciation of what's going to sell. If so, the styles being adopted so slavishly by the industry and its artists can't help but lead to parody, and of course self-parody. Anyone who is an artist with any rationality would probably see past all the hype.

 

I think there are a lot of talented musos out there, but the whole angst thing has been so done to death, the sex thing is passe, and a lot of artists do subscribe to a rather jingoistic formula - there are bands whose music might be characterised as 'atonal' or 'music with a structure approaching disharmony', say. The idea appears to be to move towards meaninglessness to find some kind of meaning - I think rappers have a somewhat limited approach because speaking, or reciting a poem can only be so rhymey.

The rap style is a kind of minimalist tonal formula, a rap voice is a percussive, monotonal instrument and the music is repetitive and 'simple'. It's time it died a bit of a death, methinks (but then I think it did that when the Furious Five disbanded).

[lemit]

I've kind of had that argument inside my head for a long time.

 

Is the non-musical music of rap less deserving than John Cage's atonality? They definitely had different origins, but can we really use that to judge their validity?

 

My favorite form of music, Blues, which I love for the mix of formality and informality, was greatly attacked for a long time, possibly because of its origins. I think you'd have trouble finding people who don't think of the whole blues/jazz/folk/country/rock tradition as music.

 

(Muscle Shoals is my Mecca.)

 

History will decide about the current versions. I am of an age and disposition not to like them, but I don't know about their legitimacy.

 

--lemit

[Boof-head]

I had an English teacher at high-school who took the class through a musical survey (of the teacher's fave artists, of course); this included the likes of Joan Baez, Leonard Cohen (maybe he's an original rap-artist, old Len), Led Zep, a few others.

 

We were supposed to listen and discuss the lyrics, the music was supposedly incidental. I didn't really get the idea at the time and still haven't. I think Cohen is terminally depressed, perhaps.

 

Mind you, it was after we'd done Hemingway, so maybe teach was actually surveying terminally depressed alpha-male personality types.

[CraigD]

I think Eminem's someone who has recognised the hypocisy of the entertainment industry - there must be absolutely zero execs with music appreciation.

I think this is one of the silliest claims I’ve heard yet today!

 

Music execs – producers, promoters, distributors, etc – are a large an varied lot, of which a single person can hope to know and know the extent of the music appreciation of only a few. Many – in my personal experience, nearly all – are at least fair musicians themselves. It’s not unusual for musicians to be their own executives (eg: Witchwood records, which produces and distributes, and is owned and run by members of Strawbs). And lastly, my wife, who has IMHO excellent taste in music and nearly all other things, is an on-again/off-again music produced and promoter.

 

The opinion that nobody in a the music and wider entertainment industry appreciates music, is, I think, ill reasoned, and almost certainly formed in the absence of personal experience with people in the business.

More likely they have a better appreciation of what's going to sell.

I think it’s safe to say that people in the business of selling music tend to have good understanding of what’s going to sell, and to whom and how best to sell it. However, being able to sell music does not IMHO, preclude appreciating it. Rather, in my experience, the better produces and promoters.

 

A list of people who’ve had and currently have executive roles in the music business and are considered to have excellent appreciations of music would be too long to do justice to in a single post. To claim none of them do is just ludicrous. I challenge you, Boof-head, to defend your claim against even a short list of them, such as wikipedia’s “notable music executives”.

[Pyrotex]

I've kind of had that argument inside my head for a long time.

...My favorite form of music, Blues...

(Muscle Shoals is my Mecca.)

History will decide about the current versions. ...

Yes, me too. In fact, ever since Crosby, Stills & Nash stopped putting out the "good stuff".

And Kansas.

Muscle Shoals is practically where I was born and raised, just 20 miles from Russellville, Alabama. My parents didn't allow us to hear the Blues at home. But when I went to college, I went crazy for the Blues. Still am.

There are so many musical genres that have all but disappeared, prolly cause they no longer have anything to say to today's generations. Tin pan alley, honkytonk, rinkydink, torch, jungle, boogie and others. But jazz, swing and romantic ballads have survived.

Today's music is so undistinguished. Nothing separates it from the pack, marks it as unique, or associates it with the events of this decade. Remember "...paranoia strikes deep"? How can you forget if you're over 55?

[Boof-head]

I think this is one of the silliest claims I’ve heard yet today!

Wait 'til you hear the latest "great new releases".

 

I think the music industry is overloaded with wannabes; and that some good artists are hijacked by the hype. Some of them wake up, some get wasted but being successful looks from the outside like being good at avoiding the execs and managing things yourself, or following the conventional route and producing "what they want". About 80% of the releases are complete crap, the intention seems to be: produce the least original uninspiring rubbish possible, you might make that one passable tune you eventually come up with sound amazing by comparison.

 

Do you play music, can you belt out any 'oldies' like the Stones, Santana or say, Steely Dan?

[pamela]

ahhh Santana, the only band that could move me to dance for hours on end, but then again, i am the only person that i have ever seen dance to the long version of Moby Dick by Zeppelin;)

Every era has their good and bad share of music, maybe you just haven't heard enough, Boof head. Try listening to some college stations, you will probably find there is alot out there you like:)

[Boof-head]

I'm not really saying all of the new stuff is crap; but a lot of it seems to be.

 

I like Dave Grohl and the Foos, I like some of the newer Kiwi bands, like the Datsuns, OpShop, I used to listen to Split Enz a bit. If you've heard of a band called Hello Sailor, I sold a pair of Gohills to one of the members (a long time ago), the ex-lead singer lives up the road, one Graeme Brazier.

 

You might have once heard a song called "Drink", by an Auckland band called The Dudes, which is something of an anthem here.

[lemit]

So, Pyrotex, are you my long-lost twin?

 

I'm amazed how often in effective new rock I hear eight-bar patterns. I should explain that I think of eight-bar as real blues and 12- or 16-bar as kind of cluttered.

 

I led a somewhat strange life in the sixties, so "paraoia strikes deep" didn't strike a note--so to speak--with me. So I searched it. "For what it's worth" didn't help either. But as soon as I read the first line of the lyrics I was transported to a much earlier but not simpler time. That emotional trigger is amazing. I would go out and protest something if I hadn't got promises of support from state representatives and our local congress member for projects I'm promoting. Co-optation? I don't know. Of course the fact that standing more than 15 minutes is extremely painful might make a difference too.

 

--lemit

[vanamoinen1]

Listening to music in one's car or home is one thing. Hearing it jam in a club is another, and the bottom line of Eminem is that when his songs (or more likely, club remixes of his songs) crank in a club (a club most likely populated by 20 and 30 somethings, many of which are single and cruising), people dance (and I hate to be the bearer of dismal news, but Britney is danceable). In this context, the quality and content of the lyrics-writing become largely irrelevant--the Dre factor shoots up in significance. I'm sorry, but you just can't dance to Cage--or Rorem, or Ives for that matter. I don't mean to devalue their work, but rather to point out that there is at least one environment which is suitable to a type of music and that other environments are unsuitable therefor.

 

Myself, bluegrass is a weakness, although, really this is for the most part totally "meaningless" music. Traditional tunes are relatively simple Americanised Irish tunes (and some irish-ish native tunes), mostly hanging in 8 bar units. There is limited development/improvisation to it (largely tradition-driven)--certainly no JSBach has arisen to complexify it. Songs, if any, tend to focus on issues either no longer relevant, or so over-done as to be trite. Nevertheless, hit the Blue Plum in Tennessee and you'll see a lot of people enjoying the beats. These same people will buy handicrafts, carnival food and pay for lodging, thus upping the income of Johnson City. And yet, stirrings--New Grass has tremendous potential as demonstrated by Nickel Creek, Gillian Welsh et al. Musical midrash.

 

Finally, from a slanted patent attorney perspective--we often make the argument that commercial success (of an invention) serves as secondary evidence as to that invention's novelty/uniqueness. The implication is that the invention services some need which otherwise is not being serviced. Taking that over to music--the commercial success of Eminem (and of the rap industry as a whole) indicates that he/they fill(s) some market's need for him/them or the flipside, there is a demand for this type of music and he/they service that demand. Whether there's lasting power in this music remains to be seen.

 

Boof-Head--anecdotally, I think Mr. Cohen was actually late to the game. The Germans had an odd "musical" period back in the early 1900s where they "orchestrated" entire choirs of what was (essentially) rap. Oy, imagine a whole concert of rhythmic German chanting. Not my idea of a good night out.

[Pyrotex]

So, Pyrotex, are you my long-lost twin?... I led a somewhat strange life in the sixties, so "paranoia strikes deep" didn't strike a note--so to speak--with me. ...But as soon as I read the first line of the lyrics ...emotional trigger is amazing. ...

Me have a twin? :P

Well, you must be the evil one, because I am just so totally, you know, like, righteous.

My life in the sixties was also strange a la Twilight Zone. I was always on the "outside" of everything, looking in, observing from a distance, like being invisible. The only things that kept me alive were music, math, physics, science fiction, and Playboy magazine centerfolds.

[Moontanman]

I have very little interest in much of what is termed "new" music. many of the young singers are really dull and as the OP said sex and angst has been done to death. I used to honestly be able to say there were no up and coming Led Zeps or Santana's. the new stuff on the radio is just plain, plain, no real heart or soul. then my son turned me on to some stuff his schools mates were doing and to some new bands making the rounds of colleges. I think they have lots of potential, not really new sounds, but a real heart and soul take on Rock and roll. I look forward to hearing this in more wide spread venues. since I am 54 and I shamefully find myself in the same situation my parents were when i was listening to the "new" music of my time, they didn't think anything would come of it, maybe it didn't, but I do find my self saying the same about what I hear on the radio but as i said maybe the cycle is about to repeat and the really new "new" music will be different, maybe even as good as my old "new' music.

[vanamoinen1]

Moontanman: don't give up hope. Myself, I can do without another Santana, but Zeppelin, no--I won't give up hope for a new incarnation--and Floyd will never die. In the meantime, Dave Matthews Band RULES! Sigur Ros--out of iceland--actually is an interesting ensemble--huge band with each member doing one specific thing throughout an individual song yielding very dense, paradoxically complex music. For sheer scale of variety, (even if somewhat drearyily) Radiohead has proven its lasting power and they put on an amazing show--witness, too, the covers of their music ranging from string quartets--in classical and bluegrass style--as well as Christopher O'Riley's piano transcriptions. Normally, I'd not listen to them, but My Chemical Romance puts on a surprisingly good set and their album "Welcome to the Black Parade" is the first concept album I've liked in ages. Vienna Teng and Dengue Fever (both picks I learned about from NPR) are refreshingly different--Teng is amazing. On the popular side, Life House maintains a positive attitude, has well-constructed songs and has received goodly amounts of airtime (well-deserved in my opinion) as has the band Live (although they suck when actually seen live). As with Live, Our Lady Peace puts out a bit of message-music and tunefully at that. And so on. There's lots of music going on. It's just a bit more complicated these days figuring out which bands are to your own taste. Thankfully, Borders went over to electronic listening so that you can preview (prelisten?) your purchases.

 

Now, please tell me when I can venture into a mall or Starbucks and NOT have to hear the same old blaring Frank Sinatra or put-me-to-sleep Dean Martin. And that horrible "Baby it's cold outside" or whatever, needs to DIE.

[lawcat]

Plato figured this out 2500 years ago -- music distribution and enjoyment chain is a matter of inspiration.

[modest]

I think Eminem's someone who has recognised the hypocisy of the entertainment industry

 

I'm sure there's a good point in there...

 

I'd guess Eminem is very smart and understands the music industry very, very well. Controversy sells (always has) and any musician who can successfully capitalize on that is doing something that not many can. He certainly knows what he's doing. Spelling it out in his lyrics he makes no apologies,

:phones: Though I'm not the first king of controversy

I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley

to do Black Music so selfishly

and use it to get myself wealthy :phones:

 

~modest :shrug:

[freeztar]

Listening to music in one's car or home is one thing. Hearing it jam in a club is another, and the bottom line of Eminem is that when his songs (or more likely, club remixes of his songs) crank in a club (a club most likely populated by 20 and 30 somethings, many of which are single and cruising), people dance (and I hate to be the bearer of dismal news, but Britney is danceable). In this context, the quality and content of the lyrics-writing become largely irrelevant--the Dre factor shoots up in significance. I'm sorry, but you just can't dance to Cage--or Rorem, or Ives for that matter. I don't mean to devalue their work, but rather to point out that there is at least one environment which is suitable to a type of music and that other environments are unsuitable therefor.

 

Indeed. I'm going to crawl out on a limb here and guess that most of the older folks posting in this thread have never been to a modern dance club in a big city. :phones:

 

Taking that over to music--the commercial success of Eminem (and of the rap industry as a whole) indicates that he/they fill(s) some market's need for him/them or the flipside, there is a demand for this type of music and he/they service that demand. Whether there's lasting power in this music remains to be seen.

Indeed. I would never buy a Brittany Spears album, but millions of others feel otherwise. That the music is trite to me does not mean that it should be trite for others.

 

I think it really comes down to music appreciation. For myself, I experience music differently depending on many factors including (but not limited to): my mood, the tone or atmosphere of the piece, my environment, my appreciation for the piece, etc.

 

One person may hear Bach and envision the beauties of Heaven, while another person may say that it says nothing. But to interpret that person's opinion as meaning that they can never truly appreciate music the way you do (regarding Bach) is illogical.

 

When I was younger, I struggled with this. It always irked me when a song I loved (and felt emotionally connected to) became a radio hit. It upset me because I envisioned hordes of mindless drones listening to "my cherished music" in a very casual manner. For example, "Black" by Pearl Jam was a little nugget of gold on their album "Ten". While most of my peers were obssesed with "Even Flow" and "Jeremy", I would sit in my room with the lights off and listen to "Black". It is such an emotional song! (for me anyways) Then, I heard it on the radio one day. Next thing I knew, it was being played everywhere. It seemed to disgrace the feeling behind the song to hear it in a boisterous restaurant.

 

Fortunately, over time, I've learned to let go of this mentality. In doing so, I've inadvertently opened my mind to all kinds of new music. Pyrotex mentioned CSNY earlier. I love CSNY and I feel obligated to present a new incarnation of CSNY. If you are a fan of CSNY and do not find the following song enjoyable, I'd very much like to know why.

 

YouTube - Fleet Foxes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeiRe4Qp9Dw

[CraigD]

I think Cohen is terminally depressed, perhaps.

Boof-Head--anecdotally, I think Mr. Cohen was actually late to the game.

Being a fan of Leonard Cohen since before I knew who he – or nearly anyone – was, ca. 1967 (I was born in 1960), when “Suzanne” was popular, and going to see him live for the first time in a month or so, I can’t let this outrageous bashing stand!

 

Leonard Cohen is NOT a rapper! He’s got a gravely voice, for sure, moreso lately, as he’s going on 75 years old, but his songs have never been chants (the best old term I can think of for a melodic and rhythmic form like rap, though “poetic-footed chant” or “syncopated chant” might be more accurate), but fairly conventional melodies, even the ones that stay on the same note for many beats (eg: “The Future”: “Gimme back my broken knight, my mirrored room, my secret life. It's (up +1 step) lonely here; there's no one (+1) left (-1) to (+1)tor(-1)ture” –well, OK, the verse is rather chant-like, but the refrain’s, “When they said ‘repent, repent’, I wonder what they meant” isn’t)

 

As for Cohen being “terminally depressed”, all I can say is listen deeply to his songs, man! Starting maybe with “Hallelujah”: “It goes like this, the fourth, the fifth, the minor fall, the major lift, the baffled king composing ‘hallelujia’”. Cohen’s very mystical, always singing about souls and such, but if you hear past the surface of the lyrics, you’ll find an unbridledly ecstatic, in most cases, or in some, angry (eg: the anti-war “Story of Isaac”: “you who build these altars now / to sacrifice these children, / you must not do it anymore. A scheme is not a vision / and you never have been tempted / by a demon or a god.”) core. Simply great stuff, IMHO – it make the hairs of my neck stand up, one of my main test of lyrics.

Do you play music, can you belt out any 'oldies' like the Stones, Santana or say, Steely Dan?

Yes, I play music, “things with frets and strings” mostly, and sing. Haven’t been in a band for a couple of years now, but enjoy an occasion jam, mostly with my youngest son, who at 25 is very in several bands. Belt out, with some degree of competency, a lot of oldies, including real oldies like the traditional bluegrass, Ralph Stanley’s bands’ and The Country Gentlemen, rockier stuff like the Stones, Tull, and Floyd, Beatles, lots of Dead, CSN[Y], a lot of just Neil Young, and a lot of newer stuff, especially cloyingly popy stuff (if it’s been on an iPod commercial, I’ve likely subjected someone to a rendition of it). Only do a handful of Steely Dan – like it, but just not that familiar with it – and hardly any Santana, as it’s a bit technically virtuoso-y for me (though, oddly, I’ve no compunction about mangling Hendrix and other virtuoso-y pieces). As much original stuff or my own, my wife’s, and friends, as I can.

 

I could go on with a couple of decades of set list dump, but if you are or know a musician, you likely have a feel for what I’m like.

 

Alongside with computer programming, music’s been a major influence in my life, generating a string of tales I won’t trot out here and now, except to note that my current wife first seriously caught my eye when I dropped into a bar where she was playing and singing – I hardly remember the songs, now, other than that one was a highly countrified version of the Stones “Wild Horses” – with what struck me as the timing and voice of an absolute angel.

 

As far as rap goes, I’ve nothing against it, other than that I’m really bad at it. However you trace its history, I think you’ve got to acknowledge its influence on a wide range of music. For example, consider the question: though surely far from old school, are the Chili Peppers a rap band, or Bob Schneider (who I’d really love to be able to rap like!) a rap singer? A lot of creative people have put a lot into the tradition, so IMHO, it’s simply wrong to label the whole genre, style, and tradition “meaningless”.