[Q] Placebo - mind over matter?

[paigetheoracle]

Could placebo effectiveness be proof of mind over matter?

[Michaelangelica]

yes,the placebo is our most effective drug.

But it could also be a lot more complex than that according to a recent new Scientist article.

The power of the placebo effect - life - 20 August 2008 - New Scientist

also

13 things that do not make sense - space - 19 March 2005 - New Scientist

 

http://www.cybermed.it/cybermedpdf/First%20%27placebo%20gene%27%20discovered%20-%20health%20-%2003%20December%202008%20-%20New%20Scientist.pdf

[Michaelangelica]

An interesting article on placebo

Take Sam Shoeman, who was diagnosed with end-stage liver cancer in the 1970s and given just months to live. Shoeman duly died in the allotted time frame - yet the autopsy revealed that his doctors had got it wrong. The tumour was tiny and had not spread. "He didn't die from cancer, but from believing he was dying of cancer," says Meador. "If everyone treats you as if you are dying, you buy into it. Everything in your whole being becomes about dying."

The science of voodoo: When mind attacks body - health - 13 May 2009 - New Scientist

[stereologist]

I believe that this is very possible and likely to be true. From the comments here I thought this was going to be based on case studies.

 

This extends beyond illness to survival rates in times of disasters. I understand that studies were done to find out why apparently healthy sailors drowned when others survived. It was deemed belief in a rescue that brought the survivors through.

[paigetheoracle]

Thank you Mike - another interesting artcle from you that I need to pass onto somebody at work, dying of cancer (It might help).

 

Stereologist - nice point about survival for the very reason above!

[paigetheoracle]

Another interesting angle to where this thread has been taken by Mike, is the fact that some people seem immune or become immune to certain things - The Apaches and water overloaded with arsenic, people who milk snakes for their poison and survive, several what should be lethal bites, Steve Irwin who survived stingray attacks in his early career, only to accidentally die from one, when pursuing another creature for his TV show, Jose Ayala from Puerto Rico, who seems immune to electric shock that would kill an ordinary man: Could this all be proof of evolve or die (adaptions to changed conditions, with Irwin as proof that what kills us is not the dangerous substance but the shock of the unexpected?).:)

[stereologist]

I would not say we evolve since evolving is a notion attributed to a species and not individuals. I think the term is to become conditioned or tolerant to conditions. I think of callouses as a means of tolerating hard physical conditions.

[Michaelangelica]

Thank you Mike - another interesting article from you that I need to pass onto somebody at work, dying of cancer (It might help).

!

The first new scientist article puts a lot of our research in the "suspect" department. Especially meta analysis and even double blind studies and maybe even epidemiological studies. It took me a long time and a dozen reads to really come to grips with what was said. Basically the gold standard meta-analysis is floored. Herbs for example often have many uses. Heartsease is good for divining a lover or husband, a broken heart, making someone fall in love with you, cancer, and perhaps to dim traumatic memories.

The author points out that if you reviewed all the studies- looked at all the studies for opium-meta-analysis (In statistics, a meta-analysis combines the results of several studies that address a set of related research hypotheses-wiki) for marriage break up, predicting the future, contacting spirits,pain, ingrown toenails, sleep, etc you would have to conclude that it is ineffective. Many herbs have dozens of traditional uses. So a meta-analysis of all the research on the herb (if there is any) will show that the herb is infective when it may be effective in particular situations/disease states.

(or even at particular times of the year sage in flower may contain an anti-aging compound)

 

On your workmate with cancer

I had a friend/ work colleague some many years ago who was diagnosed with cancer. She went to the oncologist and said the waiting room was dim and funereal with a picture of vultures picking at a skeleton on the wall. (!) When she told the doctor she wanted to treat herself with diet, meditation and herbs he went ballistic, "If you want to kill yourself you don't need my help!" he screamed.

She found another oncologist who agreed to her treatment but said he had to see her every 3 months

She was very strict and disciplined with her diet, organic vegetarian, yoga, meditation, various herbs (like heartsease). She was very disciplined and determined to beat the cancer. The Doc. eventually said " OK see me every 6 months', then every year, the every 2 years, then every three etc-- you get the picture.

Have a look at the Hypography threads "Cancer cures" and " Violets, Violet leaf tea and cyclocides" here at Hypography. There may be something useful there.

 

Sometimes i wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?

 

i worked with a psychiatrist in a Tuberculosis ward a long time ago as a young psychiatric nurse in training. He said TB was a psychosomatic disease. We all howled him down disbelieving- "But is a bacteria something real that you can kill with anti-biotics- how can it be psychosomatic!?". He pointed out that most people come into contact with the TB bacteria, but rarely get anything more serious than a cold.

 

Most of the patients were alcoholics (it was government policy then to hospitalise alcoholics at state expense until the TB was clear-18 months).

Alcohol can kill slowly or suddenly-your choice. A much more dangerous and deadly drug than heroin- and it kills a 1,000 times more people.

 

Australian Aborigines have a ritual "curse" for people who have committed very serious crimes ( in their culture). It is called "pointing the bone" because at the end of the ceremony a bone is pointed at the accused. The person usually dies within a week or so. It is a death sentence done totally by belief and suggestion.

SEE

Bone [email protected]

Aborigines

 

The psychiatrist who developed the Transactional Analysis way of analysing communication said people often "scripted" their lives and even their death date. " i will die at 61,71 81 101 etc" Ask around at the office watercooler and see how many have a belief like this. " "I don't want to live without you" etc.

[paigetheoracle]

I would not say we evolve since evolving is a notion attributed to a species and not individuals. I think the term is to become conditioned or tolerant to conditions. I think of callouses as a means of tolerating hard physical conditions.

 

Yes well think of how body armour of any sort (even mental armouring), designed to protect you, ultimately slows you down and cuts down on perception too: The walls of the prison cell cut down mobility and only leaves small peep holes with which to view the world.

[paigetheoracle]

So a meta-analysis of all the research on the herb (if there is any) will show that the herb is infective when it may be effective in particular situations/disease states.

 

Belief is the key here in my opnion - see also below

 

On your workmate with cancer

I had a friend/ work colleague some many years ago who was diagnosed with cancer. She was very disciplined and determined to beat the cancer. The Doc. eventually said " OK see me every 6 months', then every year, the every 2 years, then every three etc-- you get the picture.

 

Again, the determination not to be beat by the disease

 

Sometimes i wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?

 

You don't hold your punches do you? My belief too as with my posts on your Depression thread recently (Little death or mental/ spiritual death i.e. giving up effort and accepting defeat).

 

i worked with a psychiatrist in a Tuberculosis ward a long time ago as a young psychiatric nurse in training. He said TB was a psychosomatic disease. We all howled him down disbelieving- "But is a bacteria something real that you can kill with anti-biotics- how can it be psychosomatic!?". He pointed out that most people come into contact with the TB bacteria, but rarely get anything more serious than a cold.

 

Excellent point! This goes back to me saying that it's the attention that the sick get that makes them well, not the medicine i.e. showing you 'care' whether they live or die/ are not well or coping with life.

 

Most of the patients were alcoholics (it was government policy then to hospitalise alcoholics at state expense until the TB was clear-18 months).

Alcohol can kill slowly or suddenly-your choice. A much more dangerous and deadly drug than heroin- and it kills a 1,000 times more people.

 

Interesting that alcohol is a 'depressive', not so?

 

Australian Aborigines have a ritual "curse" for people who have committed very serious crimes ( in their culture). It is called "pointing the bone" because at the end of the ceremony a bone is pointed at the accused. The person usually dies within a week or so. It is a death sentence done totally by belief and suggestion.

 

Again belief and ostracism: See 'The Four Pillars of Healing by Dr Leo Galland, which in the chapter in 'relationships', states that people live longer and stay healthier in a community that supports them, rather than ignores them or treats them with hostility

 

The psychiatrist who developed the Transactional Analysis way of analysing communication said people often "scripted" their lives and even their death date. " i will die at 61,71 81 101 etc" Ask around at the office watercooler and see how many have a belief like this. " "I don't want to live without you" etc.

 

Read the book

 

Will follow up the suggestions for my colleague but I suspect it might be he's accepted the death wish and is unreachable (suicidal) because of this: Been here before and it's a sad waste of life but not mine to chose

[paigetheoracle]

The way I view placebo is the same way I see 'lucky charms' - belief driven. It works by drawing attention to what is wrong and believing it can be fixed as opposed to abandonment and depression, which is believing nothing works, so staying ill or getting worse.

[stereologist]

Could placebo effectiveness be proof of mind over...

 

I guess it all depends on what you mean. My interpretation is no. Here are some ideas to consider:

 

1. The placebo effect also works with real treatments

2. Placebo effects are not strong clinical effects

3. Pill color and type make a difference

4. People receiving pain killers and thought they were getting a placebo reported less benefit

5. Placebos don't work on people that are asleep

6. Placebos usually affect only subjective issues such as pain, headaches, nausea, and so forth

7. Placebos usually do not affect objective issues - things that can be measured (poor evidence for this)

8. People told that a side effect of a drug was nausea suffered adverse effects to the inert material

[paigetheoracle]

I guess it all depends on what you mean. My interpretation is no. Here are some ideas to consider:

 

1. The placebo effect also works with real treatments

2. Placebo effects are not strong clinical effects

3. Pill color and type make a difference

4. People receiving pain killers and thought they were getting a placebo reported less benefit

5. Placebos don't work on people that are asleep

6. Placebos usually affect only subjective issues such as pain, headaches, nausea, and so forth

7. Placebos usually do not affect objective issues - things that can be measured (poor evidence for this)

8. People told that a side effect of a drug was nausea suffered adverse effects to the inert material

 

All the above seem to suggest mind over matter to me, including pill colour and sleep (If you're asleep, how can you suggest/ hypnotize somebody into believing that they are getting better or worse as the above suggests). It won't remove a tumour but if you read 'Anatomy of an Illness' by Norman Cousins, you might see that the power of positive suggestion does work but over time, not instantly as with a scalpel.

[stereologist]

I see all of the above reasons for showing there is no 'mind over matter'.

 

For example, you still have a mind if asleep, yet no effect is observed.

 

An interesting attitude is that some people get 'hooked' on the placebos. They demand that the doctor continue to give them the placebo even after being told that it is an inert material. Doctors admit prescribing placebos, for example prescribing antibiotics for viral infections.

 

Like I suggested before, it all depends on what 'mind over matter' is defined to be.

 

Do you have a definition?

[paigetheoracle]

I see all of the above reasons for showing there is no 'mind over matter'.

 

For example, you still have a mind if asleep, yet no effect is observed.

 

An interesting attitude is that some people get 'hooked' on the placebos. They demand that the doctor continue to give them the placebo even after being told that it is an inert material. Doctors admit prescribing placebos, for example prescribing antibiotics for viral infections.

 

Like I suggested before, it all depends on what 'mind over matter' is defined to be.

 

Do you have a definition?

 

That which believes it can control matter and therefore can - you in other words: As somebody said 'If you believe you can do something, you can (include curing yourself - it's called motivation) - if you believe you can't, you won't' (Henry Ford?). If you move it is your will power that achieves this otherwise it couldn't happen: There has to be a you that wants to achieve things for them to happen, it doesn't happen spontaneously for no reason or don't you believe in cause and effect?

[stereologist]

I don't believe we can control matter by thinking. Numerous studies have shown that thinking about a cure does not cure. Cancer is not cured by thinking a cure. Thinking, prayer, motivation, or what ever you want to call it did not stop AIDS.

 

Diseases can be stopped in comatose patients. Although the placebo effect is not seen in sleeping or unaware patients drugs do work.

[paigetheoracle]

I don't believe we can control matter by thinking. Numerous studies have shown that thinking about a cure does not cure. Cancer is not cured by thinking a cure. Thinking, prayer, motivation, or what ever you want to call it did not stop AIDS.

 

Diseases can be stopped in comatose patients. Although the placebo effect is not seen in sleeping or unaware patients drugs do work.

 

What you're saying is that drugs and operations cure diseases? I use drugs to 'control' my migraines but it doesn't cure the dis-ease and it was emotion (anger) that started them. You can control pests in the garden and put down fertilizer to encourage growth. You can also harvest what you've planted but you still need the roots of the good plants to survive and to kill the weeds to optimize the crop. If the root of a dis-ease is mental and not physical, killing the effect upon the body through drugs or cutting out the offending parts through surgery, won't cure the patient - hence remission, not to mention iatrogenic damage through surgical procedures and drug reactions/ overdoses.

 

What percentage of patients die under medical supervision as opposed to survive cancer without it and why do people in China survive cancer where people in the West die in their droves from it? These are questions that need answering. Why the spread of Aids and why are some people surviving it nowadays? Why doesn't every accident or illness kill every victim alike? Why do some survive while others succumb? These are questions you should ask yourself and indeed this is the whole point of this thread. Not to blandly accept that we know the answers to everything but to search for them diligently and that means both you and me as well as everyone else interested in this thread. The world needs to progress or die out like the dinosaurs, through lack of evolution of thought, leading to evolution of body i.e. every research, leading to every advance in our knowledge and abilities to act therefore to our individual or racial advantage.