[Q] Placebo - mind over matter?

[Michaelangelica]

I don't believe we can control matter by thinking. Numerous studies have shown that thinking about a cure does not cure. Cancer is not cured by thinking a cure. Thinking, prayer, motivation, or what ever you want to call it did not stop AIDS.

 

Diseases can be stopped in comatose patients. Although the placebo effect is not seen in sleeping or unaware patients drugs do work.

i don't believe this to be true.

See my previous posts.

 

What evidence have you that sleeping or comatose patients are not affected by placebos?

[stereologist]

i don't believe this to be true.

See my previous posts.

Can you clarify this?

[stereologist]

What you're saying is that drugs and operations cure diseases?

 

Yes. In some cases. You point to a disease in which the treatment is not a cure.

 

What percentage of patients die under medical supervision as opposed to survive cancer without it and why do people in China survive cancer where people in the West die in their droves from it? These are questions that need answering. Why the spread of Aids and why are some people surviving it nowadays? Why doesn't every accident or illness kill every victim alike? Why do some survive while others succumb? These are questions you should ask yourself and indeed this is the whole point of this thread. Not to blandly accept that we know the answers to everything but to search for them diligently and that means both you and me as well as everyone else interested in this thread. The world needs to progress or die out like the dinosaurs, through lack of evolution of thought, leading to evolution of body i.e. every research, leading to every advance in our knowledge and abilities to act therefore to our individual or racial advantage.

 

There are a lot issues here.

My main question is, do you have any evidence of the cancer in China statement?

[stereologist]

What evidence have you that sleeping or comatose patients are not affected by placebos?

 

I read about it in sleep studies.

[paigetheoracle]

i don't believe this to be true.

See my previous posts.

 

What evidence have you that sleeping or comatose patients are not affected by placebos?

 

Thank you for bringing this up! (Some people want to know and don't mind being challenged, others pump out the same old thing without listening to others, even though they say they do (replies prove they don't)). On top of this isn't it funny how some people won't listen to what you say, then tell you you're wrong?

 

When we're convinced we're right, we won't look at any evidence that might contradict this but when our guard is down, we might 'accidentally' (unconsciously) open up our minds and see the truth: For instance I was so convinced the stuff I used on the shower cleaned it as well, if not better than the stuff the wife used, that I didn't check the results. When I accidentally looked at the shower wall and saw the smears, instead of dismissing her claim out of hand, I saw she was actually right!

 

This is why I stated in one of my posts ages ago that only the open, the innocent see ghosts, UFO's or anything unusual/ paranormal because they are not defended against such possibilities.

[Michaelangelica]

I read about it in sleep studies.

What would you call hypnotism? Yoga Nidra? Auto-suggestion, Meditation?

Mind Powers-How to Use and Control Your Mind

 

What is the function of sleep?

[paigetheoracle]

Yes. In some cases. You point to a disease in which the treatment is not a cure.

 

 

 

There are a lot issues here.

My main question is, do you have any evidence of the cancer in China statement?

 

No, what I can tell you that this used to be the case in pre-industrialized China but increased stress and pollution has altered this fact, making it the largest killer and perhaps this was true of the pre-industrialized West too but I have no proof of that, only that it existed even in Shakespeare's time but has come to prominence as a killer disease in the last hundred years or so. The evidence I have is anecdotal in that it was from a Chinese doctor my wife works with, who said in her time there it was chronic but not aggressive and who better to know?

[stereologist]

Part of the problem in understanding issues such as cancer is that the mortality rate changes as diseases are addressed. More people may die from a given cause if other causes are eliminated or reduced. People no longer die of smallpox. Those deaths now are due to other causes.

 

The life expectancy has also risen partially as a result of the elimination of some causes of death. This also makes some diseases more common.

 

Better diagnostic methods also make some diseases appear to be more common. People who used to "get sick and die", might now be labeled as "died of aggressive cancer."

 

Don't forget that Shakespeare lived around the late 1500s into the early 1600s. The microscope was invented just before 1600. Hooke and Leeuwenhoek were in the mid to late 1600s. This just tells you how rudimentary medical science was at the time.

[paigetheoracle]

Part of the problem in understanding issues such as cancer is that the mortality rate changes as diseases are addressed. More people may die from a given cause if other causes are eliminated or reduced. People no longer die of smallpox. Those deaths now are due to other causes.

 

The life expectancy has also risen partially as a result of the elimination of some causes of death. This also makes some diseases more common.

 

Better diagnostic methods also make some diseases appear to be more common. People who used to "get sick and die", might now be labeled as "died of aggressive cancer."

 

Don't forget that Shakespeare lived around the late 1500s into the early 1600s. The microscope was invented just before 1600. Hooke and Leeuwenhoek were in the mid to late 1600s. This just tells you how rudimentary medical science was at the time.

 

Interesting - so that is what you meant about it being complicated!

[paigetheoracle]

What causes accidents? Failure to pay attention to what you're doing/ where you are.+ What causes illness? Failure to look after yourself, through simple hygiene or to listen to what your body is telling you (sensory information again however not external but internal).* Again this is failed attention at personal or social level. Then of course there is mental illness in the form of depression, which again is inattention or failure to connect with the real world i.e. that which is here/ physically in front of you.

 

+ Dropping asleep at the wheel causes more accidents than being drunk but both are failure to be present and control the situation you find yourself in, the latter deliberately and the former because you cannot resist the impulse to let go of consciousness (see also Mike quote for the latter, below)

 

* Allowing things to grow in you, in the form of tumours, disease etc. or allowing poisons to accumulate, is slow suicide - Mike, didn't you say something in a recent post about thinking something was suicide (this thread maybe?), masked as something else? Ah yes, here it is - post no. 7, here and I quote 'Sometimes I wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?'

[stereologist]

What causes accidents? Failure to pay attention to what you're doing/ where you are.+ What causes illness? Failure to look after yourself, through simple hygiene or to listen to what your body is telling you (sensory information again however not external but internal).* Again this is failed attention at personal or social level. Then of course there is mental illness in the form of depression, which again is inattention or failure to connect with the real world i.e. that which is here/ physically in front of you.

 

+ Dropping asleep at the wheel causes more accidents than being drunk but both are failure to be present and control the situation you find yourself in, the latter deliberately and the former because you cannot resist the impulse to let go of consciousness (see also Mike quote for the latter, below)

 

* Allowing things to grow in you, in the form of tumours, disease etc. or allowing poisons to accumulate, is slow suicide - Mike, didn't you say something in a recent post about thinking something was suicide (this thread maybe?), masked as something else? Ah yes, here it is - post no. 7, here and I quote 'Sometimes I wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?'

 

I don't think your notion that disease spread through failure to look after yourself. Think of counter examples. It's easy. As far as mental illness s concerned, I think your comment is way off mark.

 

I agree that the accidents are often, not always, due to inattention.

 

Allowing things to grow in you? How large do you think a tumor has to become before you are aware of its presence? Allowing disease to grow inside of you? People are asymptomatic all of the time.

 

I skipped over most of the comments like this because they weren't worth addressing.

[paigetheoracle]

I don't think your notion that disease spread through failure to look after yourself. Think of counter examples. It's easy.

 

You mean like dirty water from wells? As I come up with this 'I leave it to you' attitude to putting forward proof myself, I'm afraid I must challenge you on it as you and others have challenged me in the past

 

As far as mental illness s concerned, I think your comment is way off mark.

 

With regards to depression or mental illness per se?

 

I agree that the accidents are often, not always, due to inattention.

 

What other causes are there?

 

Allowing things to grow in you? How large do you think a tumor has to become before you are aware of its presence? Allowing disease to grow inside of you? People are asymptomatic all of the time.

 

Asymptomatic or unaware? Think of the TV exploitation shows on giant tumours or gigantically overweight people?

 

I skipped over most of the comments like this because they weren't worth addressing.

 

Glad you think so! Are you aware that it was awareness of hygience and not advances in medicine, that led to a healthier population in industrialized England? You seem well read, so I'll assume you do. Then there are the cases mentioned by Elias Metchnikoff in his 1904 book 'Old Age', which covers old people who lived healthy into their eighties and nineties before the medical care we now all enjoy.

 

William Osler was considered one of the greatest clinicians around at the turn of the century and yet he expressed the view that it wasn't treatment he used that cured the patient but their faith in it and good nursing care. Then there's Francis Peabody's statement that the secret of care for the patient is to be found in caring for the patient.

 

Then there's the case of hypnosis and its effect upon the Mantoux test for tuberculin, which shows hypnotic suggestion can obliterate the vascular manifestation of the disease - scientific proof of mind over matter. In the 1977 issue of Man and Medicine, Professor Eli Ginzberg of Columbia University states that "No improvement in the health care system will be efficacious unless the citizen assumes full responsibility for his own well being". Need 'I' go on?

[stereologist]

Think of counter examples. It's easy.

1. Food borne illnesses on cruise ships - happens all the time

2. Food borne illnesses in the regular food system - spinach, tomatoes, green onions

3. Airborne illnesses - Legionaire's disease

 

Here are 3 examples off the top of my head where large numbers of people have become ill.

 

Not all depressions are simply due to allowing sadness get out of hand.

 

I agree that the accidents are often, not always, due to inattention.

Some accidents are not initiated by humans such as avalanches, lightning strikes, earthquakes, and flash floods.

 

Allowing things to grow in you? How large do you think a tumor has to become before you are aware of its presence? Allowing disease to grow inside of you? People are asymptomatic all of the time.

 

Asymptomatic or unaware? Think of the TV exploitation shows on giant tumours or gigantically overweight people?

I didn't know you were talking about rare conditions. I was talking about the majority of conditions.

[Michaelangelica]

What causes accidents? Failure to pay attention to what you're doing/ where you are.+

Irrefutably; but go back one step.

What causes failure to pay attention?

What causes illness? Failure to look after yourself,

Certainly a part of the problem. however many the poor, homeless, disabled or mentally ill/defective don't have a choice.

 

+ Drofailure to be present and control the situation you find yourself inpping asleep at the wheel causes more accidents than being drunk but both are ,

Are you sure of your statistics here?

Again go back one logical step.

What causes "failure to be present and control the situation"

 

 

* Allowing things to grow in you, in the form of tumours, disease etc. or allowing poisons to accumulate, is slow suicide - Mike, didn't you say something in a recent post about thinking something was suicide (this thread maybe?), masked as something else? Ah yes, here it is - post no. 7, here and I quote 'Sometimes I wonder if cancer is an acceptable way of topping yourself?'

Yes I wondered if (some? all?) cancers were socially acceptable suicide. That is a hard argument to support with a sick 4 year old and with chemicals, viruses and genetics giving us cancer all the time.-- Although I met one mad mother, who I swear, figuratively "pointed the bone" at her daughter. The daughter died. Her new age "therapist" comforted everyone by saying "it was for the best and who was to question god's will?". "it was wrong to give either of them "false hope". ! I hate that term. You either have hope or you don't. There is no such thing as False Hope. It made me very angry, with the therapist the mother and god.. There was no -one (except me) prepared to give the kid some hope, support and fight.

“Do not go gentle into that good night, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. . .”

from Dylan Thomas

[paigetheoracle]

Think of counter examples. It's easy.

1. Food borne illnesses on cruise ships - happens all the time

2. Food borne illnesses in the regular food system - spinach, tomatoes, green onions

3. Airborne illnesses - Legionaire's disease

 

1.Well if it happens on cruise ships all the time, you'd think people would have the sense not to travel on them! (or as they say in the UK 'You pays your money and you take your choice' (chance)).

2. Failed hygiene - proves my point again (not so regular in the UK but we don't import cheap food from Mexico or South America without rigorous safe guards - you young countries!).

3.Stop breathing - air can kill you! (this is the trouble with travel and exploration - it opens us up to new possibilities which we aren't equipped to deal with; safer to stay at home where we can control our environment easier, even if it is a more boring existence)

 

Here are 3 examples off the top of my head where large numbers of people have become ill.

 

Not all depressions are simply due to allowing sadness get out of hand.

 

No, its giving in and becoming defeatist or simply running out of energy - hence Bipolar Disease or mania then running on empty and crashing. I suffer from migraines and I see this happening with me all the time but it was strong emotion (hatred/ rage) that kick started it

 

I agree that the accidents are often, not always, due to inattention.

Some accidents are not initiated by humans such as avalanches, lightning strikes, earthquakes, and flash floods.

 

Some avalanches are or haven't you seen the film of the skiers starting one on their way down the mountain? As for earthquakes, other avalanches and some floods - it's the risks you take by living in certain areas and not heeding the warning signs when danger levels increase i.e. heavy rains, snow conditions, the reactions of animals to earth tremors: Like something out of a seventies disaster movie recently, an Italian expert, Dr Gioacchino Giuliani warned of an imminent earthquake but was ignored (occurred in April this year, killing several people). The difficulty isn't knowledge or awareness but doing something about it and that is a psychological not a physical problem.

 

Life is full of risks and you can't get away from that - you have to breath, eat, act, even reproduce - hell people live on the side of volcanoes because the soil is so fertile but the monster can awake and ruin your crops. Then there is the fact that most accidents on mountains happen on the way down because of two separate factors - one, going up you've got your toes to dig in with and are facing the rocky surface, which is better for grasping/ seeing things to grab a hold onto. Secondly there is the mental factor - your are returning in triumph, so will be high and therefore more likely to be careless, than when going up and planning your every move for success or you will be depressed because you've had to abandon your attempt and turn back for various reasons, so again may well be inattentive

 

Allowing things to grow in you? How large do you think a tumor has to become before you are aware of its presence? Allowing disease to grow inside of you? People are asymptomatic all of the time.

 

 

I didn't know you were talking about rare conditions. I was talking about the majority of conditions.

 

You think you can get out of it 'that' easy? The problem as I pointed out above in the bit on earthquakes is not dealing with the problems as they occur but ignoring them until it is too late or gets out of hand (backlogs of unsorted material, like backlogs of unsorted ideas can kill - witness the many instances of newspaper collectors (see Fortean Times), who die buried under their paper work!:naughty::eek2:

[stereologist]

Paige the food borne illnesses came from food grown inside the country. Let's not forget mad cow disease or foot and mouth outbreaks in the UK.

 

No, its giving in and becoming defeatist or simply running out of energy - hence Bipolar Disease or mania then running on empty and crashing.

This is conjecture on your part. Any proof other than a discussion of migraines which does not support the claim.

 

Avalanche deaths due to self started avalanches are not the norm.

 

The difficulty isn't knowledge or awareness but doing something about it and that is a psychological not a physical problem.

I can't disagree more here. Every day there are portents of danger. Which do you react to?

 

the reactions of animals to earth tremors

This is a good example of anecdotal evidence. It is claimed every once in a while, but unproved.

 

You think you can get out of it 'that' easy?

Makes no sense to me especially the earthquake statement. No one is a good earthquake predictor. No one.

 

Again you point to a rare item.

[paigetheoracle]

Irrefutably; but go back one step.

What causes failure to pay attention?

 

Tiredness? Running on empty i.e, lack of sustenance? Is this what you're getting at?

 

Certainly a part of the problem. however many the poor, homeless, disabled or mentally ill/defective don't have a choice.

 

We all have choices, even the mentally defective etc. but options are limited by our condition

 

Are you sure of your statistics here?

Again go back one logical step.

What causes "failure to be present and control the situation"

 

Yes fairly - it appeared in a television discussion program, where somebody refuted the current emphasis on drink-driving causing most if not all serious road accidents

 

Yes I wondered if (some? all?) cancers were socially acceptable suicide. That is a hard argument to support with a sick 4 year old and with chemicals, viruses and genetics giving us cancer all the time.-- Although I met one mad mother, who I swear, figuratively "pointed the bone" at her daughter. The daughter died. Her new age "therapist" comforted everyone by saying "it was for the best and who was to question god's will?". "it was wrong to give either of them "false hope". ! I hate that term. You either have hope or you don't. There is no such thing as False Hope. It made me very angry, with the therapist the mother and god.. There was no -one (except me) prepared to give the kid some hope, support and fight.

“Do not go gentle into that good night, Rage, rage against the dying of the light. . .”

from Dylan Thomas

 

Like the Dylan quote - it's the only thing by him I remember and like except the play 'Under Milkwood'.