[Q] Placebo - mind over matter?

[paigetheoracle]

Paige the food borne illnesses came from food grown inside the country. Let's not forget mad cow disease or foot and mouth outbreaks in the UK.

 

I certainly put my foot and mouth in it that time!

 

 

This is conjecture on your part. Any proof other than a discussion of migraines which does not support the claim.

 

I disagree with your disagreement but then maybe you can't see the link that I can as an insider on this condition

 

Avalanche deaths due to self started avalanches are not the norm.

 

No, never said they were did I?

 

 

I can't disagree more here. Every day there are portents of danger. Which do you react to?

 

Good question - you prioritize as and when things occur as in real/ ordinary life

 

 

This is a good example of anecdotal evidence. It is claimed every once in a while, but unproved.

 

By who? How? and why?

 

Makes no sense to me especially the earthquake statement. No one is a good earthquake predictor. No one.

 

Sounds like prejudice i.e. pre-judgement, not proof

 

Again you point to a rare item.

 

Rare or medium rare? Going off the subject a bit I don't see any proof that the psychic or biblical prophets etc. get it right but are a lot of the time 'interpreted' in hindsight to have got it right

[stereologist]

but are a lot of the time 'interpreted' in hindsight to have got it right

 

That's right. It's like the Italian geologist. We tend to recall the correct predictions and not all of the failures.

 

the reactions of animals to earth tremors

Any proof of this claim?

 

No one is a good earthquake predictor

Any suggestion as to anyone who is a reliable predictor of earthquakes?

[paigetheoracle]

That's right. It's like the Italian geologist. We tend to recall the correct predictions and not all of the failures.

 

 

Any proof of this claim?

 

Only newspaper articles and Fortean Times, which doesn't mean they aren't true just not believed by those who have their own agenda's to protect, so deny what they don't want to know (Suffering from that at the moment - what I call 'clubism' ('I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member' Groucho Marx)

 

 

Any suggestion as to anyone who is a reliable predictor of earthquakes?

 

There's Petra Challis, who has been scientifically studied and if you Google seismic sensitives or visit her web/ Nexus Magazine, where there was on article on it a few issues back, you'll probably find more but it's down to motivation and interest, if you do or not.

[stereologist]

I did spend some time looking and finally realized her last name is Challus. What I can't find is any scientific studies. I see the claims of correct predictions, but all sorts of people do that. I saw a single line claim a scientific study, but nothing about who, what, where, results, etc.

 

I also read about people disparaging the efforts of the USGS.

California seismicity

Can Petra produce this info? Or should I say with all of these quakes going on all of the time isn't a quake prediction likely to appear true?

 

Sorry Paige but this appears to be just a story.

[paigetheoracle]

I did spend some time looking and finally realized her last name is Challus. What I can't find is any scientific studies. I see the claims of correct predictions, but all sorts of people do that. I saw a single line claim a scientific study, but nothing about who, what, where, results, etc.

 

I also read about people disparaging the efforts of the USGS.

California seismicity

Can Petra produce this info? Or should I say with all of these quakes going on all of the time isn't a quake prediction likely to appear true?

 

Sorry Paige but this appears to be just a story.

 

No point coming back to me about it - why not email her and ask her for proof. As for disparaging the USGS - isn't that what she gets from people like you and other critics of anything on the fringe? (Why should it all be one way or 'damned if you do/ damned if you don't' mentality).

[stereologist]

To be clear it was not Petra that made disparaging comments. It was others supporting Petra.

 

Nor did I find any comments from the USGS. All I ever saw was supporters of Petra claiming they were not believed.

 

Thanks for pointing out Petra Challus, but like I said there is no demonstration that her talents have been scientifically tested.

 

So it seems that there are no reliable predictors of earthquakes.

[paigetheoracle]

To be clear it was not Petra that made disparaging comments. It was others supporting Petra.

 

Nor did I find any comments from the USGS. All I ever saw was supporters of Petra claiming they were not believed.

 

Thanks for pointing out Petra Challus, but like I said there is no demonstration that her talents have been scientifically tested.

 

So it seems that there are no reliable predictors of earthquakes.

 

If you don't really want to check it out you won't - after all this entire thread is about the power of belief and equally by inference, the power of disbelief.

[enorbet2]

This is an interesting thread but IMHO can also be a very dangerous one. Wouldn't it be lovely if life were so simple as to simply structure what one believes in and what one doesn't and have the Universe just deliver? While we unquestionably have considerable power in our lives and room for choices and there is no doubt that we can set ourselves up to respond positively and negatively (or just miss altogether) altering the flow and direction of our lives, it is just as true that excessive reliance (belief in Belief?) is a slippery slope that ends somewhere close to that despicable set of concepts in "The Secret".

 

Such belief has the intoxicating benefit of washing one's hands of any responsibility for anyone else since they either actively chose such a path or lacked the skill of believing and/or positive action to avoid "falling down". So we write off the poor and homeless and doctors write off sick people. It's all so very comfortable and reassures us that we are the captains of our soul and other people are just somehow less perfect than we, deficient in controlling or creating their destiny. This is a common belief structure for the very young who still sort of imagine they are immortal and invincible. It's just too easy to blame the victim.

 

I contend that a player (poker?) who relies on his notion that he is unbeatable will often bet more than he can afford to lose from paying little or no attention to the odds, the "run of the cards" or his bank. It is nearly impossible to be a winner believing you are a loser, but belief is just the "set" and is subject to "setting".

 

To get back to placebo, while a fascinating phenomena, there are indeed people who want to live and are willing to do essentially anything to survive, but who subsisting on mere belief, or some sort of "snake oil", die every day. A critical balance with a healthy respect for Chance is essential, I think.

[paigetheoracle]

Such belief has the intoxicating benefit of washing one's hands of any responsibility for anyone else since they either actively chose such a path or lacked the skill of believing and/or positive action to avoid "falling down". So we write off the poor and homeless and doctors write off sick people. It's all so very comfortable and reassures us that we are the captains of our soul and other people are just somehow less perfect than we, deficient in controlling or creating their destiny. This is a common belief structure for the very young who still sort of imagine they are immortal and invincible. It's just too easy to blame the victim.

 

I recently sent something to an ex-colleague about a blind, autistic person who saved themselves through music as the medical world had just about given up on them. Several weeks ago on British TV I saw an Australian series called 'The Extraordinary' (at least ten years old), which featured another autistic child given up on by medical science, who again found salvation through music and the piano. The lesson here is that we save ourselves through effort, by finding something we love doing. A victim is somebody who doesn't put the effort into changing his circumstances - a victor does, changing their lives to suit what they want out of it. Moaners aren't happy with their lot but expect somebody else to rescue them, not so the self-inspired

 

I contend that a player (poker?) who relies on his notion that he is unbeatable will often bet more than he can afford to lose from paying little or no attention to the odds, the "run of the cards" or his bank. It is nearly impossible to be a winner believing you are a loser, but belief is just the "set" and is subject to "setting".

 

I agree that attitude leads us to either be overcautious or over-excitable. The thing that is important isn't the winning or the losing but the playing of the game. This is where spirituality comes into conflict with materialism i.e. having fun or accruing points/ prizes. Materialism is about resistance leading to accumulation as spirituality is about discharge of energy or non-resistance, keeping us free of trammels: In 'Terminator Salvation' it's about hardware (the robots) versus software (Skynet as a living being). You can switch off a machine (body), more easily than you can an idea (mind).

 

To get back to placebo, while a fascinating phenomena, there are indeed people who want to live and are willing to do essentially anything to survive, but who subsisting on mere belief, or some sort of "snake oil", die every day. A critical balance with a healthy respect for Chance is essential, I think.

 

Au contraire! Those who are willing to do anything to survive destroy the placebo effect as I told my wife (Eat the right diet, work out in the gym each day, drink the prescribed amounts of water etc.). Their fear of illness and death, coupled with the urge to conform, puts the kind of stress on their lives that cancer or some other pressure induced illness is almost unavoidable. It is the relaxed and non-challant that avoid the stress by avoiding 'The Games People Play' (Eric Berne). Pretense is the number one killer of people because they are not there to control their lives, not grounded in genuineness.

 

This is a very interesting reply because it allows me to bring in metaphysics and my own theory on how the universe works.

 

By the way, the snake oil salesman is anyone who cons you into thinking the answer lies outside you and that you need them or their concoction to survive and thrive, where in fact what you need is you and your own senses, to steer you clear of dangers.

[paigetheoracle]

Here are some more references/ quotes of interest on this subject:-

 

'Medicine' once regarded the use of purging with emetics, leeches and blood letting, contact with Unicorn horns, Bezoar stones, mandrake roots and the ingesting of powdered mummies as acceptable treatments and yet nowadays nobody mentions this. Strange? To me it seems it is a lucrative market protecting itself, not healers interested in helping their patients get better, when the placebo effect is denied.

 

Dr Thomas Chalmers of The Mount Sinai Medical Centre in New York, conducted a study which discovered that those who thought they were on a placebo, when actually on Vitamin C, got more colds than those who thought they were on Vitamin C but actually were on a placebo.

 

Negative emotions like deep set grief, anger or fear have been connected to cancer (Dr Laurence le Shan and others), so why not positive emotions and health? Then there are the cases where people overdose on pain killers, creating worse conditions with say aspirin and internal bleeding that the problem they were trying to solve in the first place. The dangers of this are seen in athletes burnt out in their prime because of ignored injuries bolstered up with pain killers as well as the true cause of Leprosy as nerve damage (See the work of Dr Paul Brand in India). As Jean Charcot noted, some pain is conversion hysteria through emotional disturbance. Then there is the phenomena of patients avoiding going to the doctor's through fear of their disease being something dreadful and making it so, through failure to seek help sooner (self-fulfilling prophecy). Once more negative emotions worsening symptoms.

 

But it is not all bad news. Sir Francis Bacon called attention to the effects of humour and health as did Robert Burton in his Anatomy of Melancholy. Hobbs described it as "A passion of sudden glory". Immanual Kant in his Critique of Pure Reason makes much the same remark and even Freud believed it helped counteract nervous tension. William Fry of Stanford University wrote a tract on mirth and respiratory health as did H. Paskind in the archives of Neurology and Psychiatry (1932): The respiratory components of mirthful laughter and Effect of laughter on muscle tone, by turns.

[enorbet2]

A victim is somebody who doesn't put the effort into changing his circumstances - a victor does, changing their lives to suit what they want out of it. Moaners aren't happy with their lot but expect somebody else to rescue them, not so the self-inspired.

 

Hello Paige, everyone

The above quote is exactly the sort of over-simplification to which I was referring as the dangerous slippery slope to blaming victims and it's complement, near megalomaniacal self-delusion. This is a very common attitude among elitists and the very young which reminds me of the Dylan song "My Back Pages" in which Bob notes in this excerpt worthy of some consideration

 

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand

At the mongrel dogs who teach

Fearing not that I'd become my enemy

In the instant that I preach

My pathway led by confusion boats

Mutiny from stern to bow.

Ah, but I was so much older then,

I'm younger than that now.

 

If interested the rest is here:

Home Page | Bob Dylan

 

I mention the above simply as an illustration that even while we seem to remain some fundamental essence of definable "self" there is considerable room for change as we gain experience of how the world works. One would think that a computer dealing with what would seem only zeroes and ones within an extremely tightly defined set of rules based in math where one plus one always equals two, would always deliver the exact same results given a simple enough, tightly limited enough environment of rules but that is not the case. Whether from the effects of various electromagnetic radiation, quantum fluctuation or whatever, inputting the same exercise numerous times can and does result in differing results. If you doubt this just look up ECC (error correcting) RAM for starters. Mathematics is the most perfect construct of which I know and amazingly powerful but considering how difficult it is just to generate truly random numbers and how difficult it still is to generate AI that will fool humans, it, and the human brains implementing such powerful tools, is a long way from perfectly modeling weather let alone human existence.

 

Until a person has, for better and for worse, lived through an overwhelming event (assuming that event isn't so frightening to cause the "blanking denial" response) one is unlikely to fully grasp that there are numerous forces in life over which we have little or no control. Just forgetting one's keys and having to return to fetch them before leaving not only changes the traffic you will be dealing with, but possibly your whole day, even your entire life and you never even suspected that event and subsequent minor decision had such profound results.

 

I have confidence in self-determinism but it is by no means absolute. All of the victims of the recent Tsunami and Hurricane Katrina, for example did not simply lack "the will or the effort to put into changing their circumstances". We do have limitations and life consists of both order and chaos, logical progressions and random chance. From the very beginning we are all born into a world we didn't create and powerfully affected (some say programmed) by the chance of our ancestor's DNA, our parents geographical location and economic condition (not to mention psychological profile and their own emotional baggage) long before we have sufficient tools and experience to make any meaningful decisions. Even those tools are "designed" and in place and before we can utilize them to be "victorious". Just try to imagine how different you and your life would be if you were born into poverty, say, in Trenchtown Jamaica, or to Jewish parents in Nazi Germany. It had better be humbling or that is your first clue your imagination lacks potency or your thought processes lack a certain consistency with reality.

 

I suggest anyone who thinks all victims are "Moaners (that) aren't happy with their lot but expect somebody else to rescue them, not so the self-inspired" read that horrible (imho) book "The Secret" just to see where such black and white wishful thinking often leads. If one wishes to be truly liberated and in as much as control as possible one needs to study the flight capabilities of eagles and the nature of thermals.... again, IMHO.

 

Paige, you seem earnest and forthright to me so this is in no way meant to be personally derogatory. Actually quite the contrary is true since if I even suspected that you were incapable of seeing beyond yourself and able to consider opposing viewpoints, there would be no sense in responding, no point to dialogue.

[stereologist]

Dr Thomas Chalmers of The Mount Sinai Medical Centre in New York, conducted a study which discovered that those who thought they were on a placebo, when actually on Vitamin C, got more colds than those who thought they were on Vitamin C but actually were on a placebo.

 

Was this a statistically significant finding? It often is.

 

Part of the placebo effect is the willingness to endure a situation. Someone that believes they are going to be better is less daunted by pain or mild diseases such as colds than someone who thinks the situation is going to be worse.

[paigetheoracle]

Hello Paige, everyone

The above quote is exactly the sort of over-simplification to which I was referring as the dangerous slippery slope to blaming victims and it's complement, near megalomaniacal self-delusion. This is a very common attitude among elitists and the very young which reminds me of the Dylan song "My Back Pages" in which Bob notes in this excerpt worthy of some consideration

 

It's probably the Aspergers in my case or The Peter Pan Complex

 

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand

At the mongrel dogs who teach

Fearing not that I'd become my enemy

In the instant that I preach

My pathway led by confusion boats

Mutiny from stern to bow.

Ah, but I was so much older then,

I'm younger than that now.

 

If interested the rest is here:

Home Page | Bob Dylan

 

I Grew up with the Byrds version on Younger than Yesterday

 

I mention the above simply as an illustration that even while we seem to remain some fundamental essence of definable "self" there is considerable room for change as we gain experience of how the world works.

 

Until a person has, for better and for worse, lived through an overwhelming event (assuming that event isn't so frightening to cause the "blanking denial" response) one is unlikely to fully grasp that there are numerous forces in life over which we have little or no control. Just forgetting one's keys and having to return to fetch them before leaving not only changes the traffic you will be dealing with, but possibly your whole day, even your entire life and you never even suspected that event and subsequent minor decision had such profound results.

 

Tell me about it - 20 years trying to get a publisher

 

I have confidence in self-determinism but it is by no means absolute. All of the victims of the recent Tsunami and Hurricane Katrina, for example did not simply lack "the will or the effort to put into changing their circumstances". We do have limitations and life consists of both order and chaos, logical progressions and random chance. From the very beginning we are all born into a world we didn't create and powerfully affected (some say programmed) by the chance of our ancestor's DNA, our parents geographical location and economic condition (not to mention psychological profile and their own emotional baggage) long before we have sufficient tools and experience to make any meaningful decisions. Even those tools are "designed" and in place and before we can utilize them to be "victorious". Just try to imagine how different you and your life would be if you were born into poverty, say, in Trenchtown Jamaica, or to Jewish parents in Nazi Germany. It had better be humbling or that is your first clue your imagination lacks potency or your thought processes lack a certain consistency with reality.

 

I could say more on this but it would get the thread moved to Strange Claims as this is a science site

 

I suggest anyone who thinks all victims are "Moaners (that) aren't happy with their lot but expect somebody else to rescue them, not so the self-inspired" read that horrible (imho) book "The Secret" just to see where such black and white wishful thinking often leads. If one wishes to be truly liberated and in as much as control as possible one needs to study the flight capabilities of eagles and the nature of thermals.... again, IMHO.

 

I haven't read 'The Secret' but as I said in another post on religion recently, to progress means to put behind old ideas and this is the place for it: You say much the same above. The point I was trying to make was that 'attitude' decides how we react to circumstances and therefore what we do about them. Some people mourn forever their losses, while others celebrate their victories and that is a 'choice'. Some people say why do bad things happen to good people - to which I say aren't good people more likely to sacrifice themselves for the general good, feeling they've achieved something meaningful by doing this?

 

Paige, you seem earnest and forthright to me so this is in no way meant to be personally derogatory. Actually quite the contrary is true since if I even suspected that you were incapable of seeing beyond yourself and able to consider opposing viewpoints, there would be no sense in responding, no point to dialogue.

 

Thank you for that! Your post shows no malice Enorbert, so there is nothing to attack in your words.

[HydrogenBond]

The placebo effect is a two sided coin. If a placebo can lead to positive result in terms of a medication, is there such thing as a placebo disease that also uses the power of suggestion?

 

Years back, a woman my brother was dating had a little son. His mother said he was allergic to all types of things, including soda. I thought it was a placebo condition and couldn't see depriving the child of a little soda. One day she when she gone, I gave him a can of Coke.

 

He was happy to drink the soda, hanging with the big guys, without any ill effects even after spending the entire afternoon. When his mother returned, he immediately started to develop the symptoms she said he would get. Which of the two was the placebo? Did he really have the allergy condition and I used a placebo version of special Coke to temporarily sooth the condition? Or did he have a placebo condition that was temporarily shut off because I was treating him as being healthy?

[stereologist]

You might be interested in reading about the nocebo effect:

 

Nocebo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[paigetheoracle]

The placebo effect is a two sided coin. If a placebo can lead to positive result in terms of a medication, is there such thing as a placebo disease that also uses the power of suggestion?

 

Years back, a woman my brother was dating had a little son. His mother said he was allergic to all types of things, including soda. I thought it was a placebo condition and couldn't see depriving the child of a little soda. One day she when she gone, I gave him a can of Coke.

 

He was happy to drink the soda, hanging with the big guys, without any ill effects even after spending the entire afternoon. When his mother returned, he immediately started to develop the symptoms she said he would get. Which of the two was the placebo? Did he really have the allergy condition and I used a placebo version of special Coke to temporarily sooth the condition? Or did he have a placebo condition that was temporarily shut off because I was treating him as being healthy?

 

Dr Jerome Frank of the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, told graduating students in 1975 that any treatment of an illness that does not minister to the human spirit is grossly deficient. He cited a 1974 British study that showed no difference in survival rates for those being cared for at home as opposed to those being looked after in intensive care. He interpreted this as the emotional strain of being looked after in an atmosphere of crisis, surrounded by impersonal electronic gadgets as offsetting any technological gains.

 

Dr Robert Rynearson, writing in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry (June 1978) said and I quote 'particularly chronic illness may force the sufferer into a dependent relationship with the person who offers to heal him. If trust does not become an important part of the relationship, it is unlikely healing will occur. A thorough physical examination fosters 'trust' - there is a laying on of hands and a listening attitude. The sufferer is being touched and understood. The physician is then allowed to 'collaborate' with the patient in altering the delicate balance between illness and health"(emphasis is mine).

 

I personally think it is the latter because he might have got some kind of kick back from his mother in the form of attention, that he wouldn't have got if acted well and normal (Munchausen disease or suggestion (self-hypnosis)). This is why I'm at pains to point out the downside of sympathy: In India children are or were deliberately injured (crippled/ blinded etc) to earn money through begging and as portrayed in the film based on the book 'Slumdog Millionaire'. Whether we mean 'well' or not, the important thing is to avoid those traps that can lead to more harm than good. Jacob Bronowski said that "We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people".

 

If Hippocrates, Paracelsus and Holmes all felt that way, who are we to challenge their views gained by direct experience over many centuries and throwing them all back on the same realization at different times, over treatment?

[stereologist]

Dr Robert Rynearson, writing in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry (June 1978)

 

Where did you get this claim? I went to the journal. It was not published in June, rather July. I Checked July and I checked all issues. This person has not published an article in that journal.