Origin of the universe: god versus no god

[vetrad]

Hello all,

 

I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. As almost all of us do, at some point, I am curious as to the origins of the universe and what is behind it all. The meaning of life, so to speak.

 

 

I have a fairly scientific background (Veterinarian) and have held a firm belief in evolution and explaining away 'why we are here' by random circumstance because the earth is where it is. I (frankly, reluctantly) accompany my wife to church a few time a month and the pastor recently said something that got me thinking.

 

Before I write this, understand, I am thinking about where we are in the perspective of everything, outside our universe. If I were to be able to travel to the edge of the most distant star, what is out there...The pastor discussed time and mentioned that god created time and knows (and created) all. If you apply that to outside our universe, and the physics of time, this makes sense to me based on the BASIC understanding I know. It seems there could be a man behind the curtain sort of thing. The concept of life on earth seems almost intentional when you consider our atmosphere, magnetic field, rate of core cooling, distance from the sun, etc.

 

Sorry for the long question. Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

[LaurieAG]

Hi Vetrad,

 

Good point although this should probably be in Philosophy of Science.

 

You do raise interesting questions about 'creationist' science and its implications in the physical sciences particularly cosmology.

[Boerseun]

Hello all,

Well, howdy!

I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. As almost all of us do, at some point, I am curious as to the origins of the universe and what is behind it all. The meaning of life, so to speak.

That's the reason all of us are here!

Before I write this, understand, I am thinking about where we are in the perspective of everything, outside our universe. If I were to be able to travel to the edge of the most distant star, what is out there...

If you were to instantly travel to the edge of the observable universe, you would see exactly what you see currerntly in the vicinity of the Milky Way - with a visible horizon also 15 billion light years away, in all directions - because the universe is an unfolding hypersphere, with the edge being in the past. A bit of a mind-twister, I know - but the edge of the universe is fifteen billion light years away, from all points in the universe, simultaneously. You can simply never reach it. Hence, there's nothing "outside" of it that can "pull any strings" inside of it. No "outside" of the universe = no God. If there is a God, or a creator of any kind, he must exist within the fifteen billion light years that you observe all around you. He may very well exist outside of it, but there is no way for God to interact with the universe in that case, in which case worshipping Him, praying to Him and following Him is pointless - the info simply won't get to Him.

The pastor discussed time and mentioned that god created time and knows (and created) all. If you apply that to outside our universe, and the physics of time, this makes sense to me based on the BASIC understanding I know.

Pastors, priests, and the clergy in general, are notoriously bad authorities on matters scientifical. I wouldn't quote them nor mull too much on their insights, or lack thereof, regarding Science in general.

It seems there could be a man behind the curtain sort of thing.

As I explained, there is no "curtain" to be behind of. If there is a God, he simply must be within the 15-billion year horizon of the universe in order to interact with humanity in any way. As a matter of fact, the Bible puts the crucifiction of Christ at around 30AD - give or take a year. That's 1979 years ago that God sent his Son down to Earth, according to the Christians. This, of course, means that God's co-ordinates in space must be somewhere in a sphere with a radius of 1979 light years centered on Earth. Because not even God can outfly light. If God did indeed created everything, he imposed that speed limit on Himself. Can't blame us - it was his bad. But be that as it may, we haven't detected any hint of a "God" or a "Paradise" or any such thing in this tiny corner of the Milky Way (it's more than 20,000 light years to the Galactic centre - God's location must therefore be in our neck of the woods).

 

Imagining there's a "man behind the curtain" is a perfectly natural feeling - imagining that there's some control and purpose. But if you let go of all those intellectual pretentions and, well, fear of a purposeless life in a pointless world, then you get to see Life in all its glory for what it is. There's no imaginary boogeymen controlling things - hell, a burning schoolbus should be proof enough. The existence in this world of things like pedophiles (created by God) to completely screw up the lives of young kids (innocent, also created by God, now scarred for life) should be more proof. If there is indeed a creator, then I submit to you that he's a bumbling fool, or evil. The evidence towards that is, at least, clear.

The concept of life on earth seems almost intentional when you consider our atmosphere, magnetic field, rate of core cooling, distance from the sun, etc.

Everything on Earth seems to suit humanity down to a "t". So it seems intentional. It seems planned. Until you consider that we've evolved over eons of time to suit this particular environment.. If we evolved on a planet where our sky was red, and we breathed carbon monoxide, and our blood was green and our oceans vast seas of sulphuric acid, then we would have evolved over time to suit that, and we would have thought that scenario to be perfectly natural, and a place like Earth to be an inhospitable hell.

Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

There was no randomness in your birth. Your birth was the result of a chain of events almost 4 billion years long. There are millions and millions of individual events that took place over the last four billion years, that finally resulted in you. What you make with your short tenure on this planet, is entirely up to you. There is no higher calling, there is no higher authority, there is no bigger purpose or reason. You've got this one shot at life, and you better make it count. Because for whatever you do during your stretch on Earth, you will not be punished or rewarded for it afterwards. Morality and moral behaviour is its own reward. You get to pick what floats your boat, and run with it. Immortality is achieved by having kids - your genes go forward. There is nothing more to it than that. But take a moment and appreciate the grandness of it all. You don't need a Creator or any alternative moral authority to be a good person and to live a good life. Attempting to shift the moral responsibilty towards an invisible uber-ghost is cowardice, in the very least. You should take responsibility for your life and actions, and shun these charlatans into the history books, where they belong.

 

And that's about it. But there's nobody and nothing "behind the curtain".

[maddog]

I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. As almost all of us do, at some point, I am curious as to the origins of the universe and what is behind it all. The meaning of life, so to speak.

In case I haven't already -- Welcome to Hypography!

 

Your question, though being a great question is not all that basic. It is one all of scientific

types ponder about: the beginning of it all.

I have a fairly scientific background (Veterinarian) and have held a firm belief in evolution and explaining away 'why we are here' by random circumstance because the earth is where it is. I (frankly, reluctantly) accompany my wife to church a few time a month and the pastor recently said something that got me thinking.

That is their [clergy] function -- to get us to think. :D

Before I write this, understand, I am thinking about where we are in the perspective of everything, outside our universe. If I were to be able to travel to the edge of the most distant star, what is out there...The pastor discussed time and mentioned that god created time and knows (and created) all. If you apply that to outside our universe, and the physics of time, this makes sense to me based on the BASIC understanding I know. It seems there could be a man behind the curtain sort of thing. The concept of life on earth seems almost intentional when you consider our atmosphere, magnetic field, rate of core cooling, distance from the sun, etc.

The notion of "edge" comes with required definition of "what is the geometry" of said

Universe. Without which an answer to, is hard to assess what is out at the "edge".

So whether the Universe is "open" or "closed", this is still has not been fully settled.

In BBT, in the initial expansion (at some point), time and space do get "created". To say

that a "creator" or entity did this is to me a theological question. Not to say that I am

an Atheist (which I am Not). It is just hard to answer in any scientific way at the moment.

Sorry for the long question. Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

As I continually ponder the meaning and/or purpose to mine. :D

[Pyrotex]

Hi Vetrad,

I feel compassion for your situation, being dragged to church every now and then.

When I visit my mother or brothers, I too, have to trudge along and listen to some person try to make excuses for God. Their attempts to show how science is flawed are so naive that I cringe.

 

One preacher even spoke of the 'man behind the curtain' analogy, saying that since God created space and time, he is "outside" space and time, and can instantly be anywhere and anywhen.

 

But he never attempted to deal with the paradoxes you encounter by assuming a God not bounded by time. For example, you pray to God to heal your daughter. Let's say that your daughter gets well a week later.

 

But when God heard your prayer, he looked up into the future and already knew she was going to get well. In fact, he already knew that he himself would heal her next week. In fact, when he made the world, he looked up and already knew that 4 billion years later you would have a daughter and that she would get sick and that you would pray and that he would kill the germs and she would get better.

 

So God cannot intervene. If he changed anything, he would have already known he would change things. So actually, nothing changed! Your prayer was meaningless and it all works out the way it was carved in stone to work out. And it really IS carved in stone, because God already and always knew exactly how it was going to work out.

 

Unless of course, he isn't omnipotent and omniscient. Which means he's not a 'god'. At best he's an engineer. :D And therefore bound by all the Laws of Nature, and therefore could not possibly have 'created' time or space. What a demotion!! :D

[Boerseun]

At best he's an engineer. What a demotion!!

HEY!!!

 

Some of my best friends are engineers!!! Whaddaya mean "demotion"?!?! I think becoming an able and competent engineer is the best any possible god can aspire to!

[Qfwfq]

So God cannot intervene. If he changed anything, he would have already known he would change things. So actually, nothing changed! Your prayer was meaningless and it all works out the way it was carved in stone to work out. And it really IS carved in stone, because God already and always knew exactly how it was going to work out.

Well, theological fatalism has been noticed and discussed at least since the time of St. Augustine.

[Pyrotex]

Oh, you mean theological fatalism like this:

 

The Paradox of God and the Fruit Bowl

By Nelson Thompson

October, 2003

 

True Believer wrote:

I walk up to a fruit bowl, and there is one apple and one banana left.

I choose the apple.

God already knew that I would choose the apple.

But did God force me to choose the apple?

Was it really predetermined that I would choose the apple?

Or did God merely have knowledge of what the outcome of the

Appliance of my free will to this certain situation would be?

 

I respond:

You walk up to a fruit bowl.

God already knows that you will choose the apple.

 

But you have free will and you choose the banana.

 

This REALLY pisses off God.

He smites you with a massive heart attack,

And you die with a big bite of un-chewed banana

Lodged half way down your esophagus.

He rips your soul from your stiffening corpse

And flings it with contempt

Into the flaming pits of Hell’s deepest abyss.

 

Then God looks around a little shame-faced and says,

"Er...ah...I always knew this would happen.

Really. I've known it ever since the Creation.

This happened exactly according to my Eternal Plan!

And anybody who says otherwise is SMUCKING TOAST!!!"

 

The angels and demons look at each other nervously.

They say, "That's right God! You da Man! You da Man!"

 

And so it goes.

[Jway]

Hello all,

 

I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. As almost all of us do, at some point, I am curious as to the origins of the universe and what is behind it all. The meaning of life, so to speak.

 

I don't know if I saw a question mark in your whole post. LOL.

 

 

Before I write this, understand, I am thinking about where we are in the perspective of everything, outside our universe. If I were to be able to travel to the edge of the most distant star, what is out there...The pastor discussed time and mentioned that god created time and knows (and created) all. If you apply that to outside our universe, and the physics of time, this makes sense to me based on the BASIC understanding I know. It seems there could be a man behind the curtain sort of thing.

 

IMO, the "edge of the universe" like the "entity behind the curtain" need not be thought of as way over there, beyond 'me.' I believe you can find both going within. Deep within perhaps. As if universe is (forever) expanding inwards as well as outwards. Depends on how you choose to look at 'things.'

 

It has never really ever made sense to me that Creator would be inherently outside of Creation, and does make sense that Creator is a) still Creating, :hihi: is within you / within all and c) is not beyond evolving. Though I would add on that Creator is not subject to physical evolution. That is arguable, but for me, jury is still out on whether physical actually exists.

 

Anyway, I realize I'm perhaps on different tangent than your question, what physics studies and what even your pastor was implying. I'm offering perspective and another way to look at virtually the same thing(s).

 

Sorry for the long question. Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

 

In my worldview, you are the "man behind the curtain" when it comes to vast majority of what you experience. And for that which you are not the "one and only" you are (well) connected to that which is at One with known Universe. Go within if proof is what you seek. Knock and the door will be opened.

 

Keep on keeping on,

Jway

[Qfwfq]

They say, "That's right God! You da Man! You da Man!"

...da whaaaaaaat? :smilingsun:

 

Calling Him da man is almost like calling Him an engineer!

[Pyrotex]

... I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. ... The concept of life on earth seems almost intentional when you consider our atmosphere, magnetic field, rate of core cooling, distance from the sun, etc. ...Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

vetrad,

you're right in that the question (actually a request) you have laid before us is not easy to answer. There are three ways to answer it.

 

1. You can answer it from the God side. You start by assuming that there is a god and the Earth is just a "stage" for some holy experiment, and then you follow the logic. What kind of "person" would this god be? Why would this god "need" all this saccherine worship? Why did this god require a 13 BYear old universe? How come "murdering" your "son" buys forgiveness? And so forth... You do this until you realize the whole concept of god is so full of holes that it is silly.

 

2. You can answer it from the Science side. You start by assuming that there is no god and that the Earth is a natural product of whatever laws and happenstance may be out there, and then you follow the logic. How does evolution have to work? How does physics create suns and planets? What probabilities are involved? Is there any inherent meaning to Life (globally) or even to my life (locally), and if not, what does THAT mean? You do this until you realize that reality doesn't need a concept of god to explain what we see.

 

3. You can answer it from inside yourself. You start by assuming that your life has whatever meaning that you want to create, and that you are "big enough" to tackle, and that the Earth and the universe is yours for the understanding, and then you follow the logic. What if there is a god--or isn't? Does this change love, or honesty, or justice? Does this change the laws of physics? Would it change the way the Earth looks, or the beauty you feel when you see a butterfly, a baby, a rainbow? If "meaning" is up to you, shouldn't you get started?

[Kharakov]

1. You can answer it from the God side. You start by assuming that there is a god and the Earth is just a "stage" for some holy experiment, and then you follow the logic. What kind of "person" would this god be? Why would this god "need" all this saccherine worship? Why did this god require a 13 BYear old universe? How come "murdering" your "son" buys forgiveness? And so forth... You do this until you realize the whole concept of god is so full of holes that it is silly.

Primitive concepts of God can be as invalid as primitive concepts of Nature.

 

It's not reasonable to question the validity of science by citing primitive (incorrect/invalid) scientific concepts, neither is it reasonable to judge whether or not God exists based upon primitive theological concepts.

 

 

In fact, the best thing to do is to not start with an assumption, but rather simple observation of yourself and your experiences.

 

Think about how different (and perhaps more calm) your reactions are at this stage in your life compared to when you were 6 years old. Imagine being billions, perhaps trillions of years old (or eternal), perhaps having had many leaps in intellectual ability in your existence.

[freeztar]

It's not reasonable to question the validity of science by citing primitive (incorrect/invalid) scientific concepts, neither is it reasonable to judge whether or not God exists based upon primitive theological concepts.

I guess I missed it. Where was judgment passed in regards to "primitive theological concepts"?

[Pyrotex]

Hello Kharakov,

welcome to the party.

 

So, what "primitive" theological concepts did I mention?

How about that "murdering" one's "son" buys forgiveness for everyone else?

That's not primitive.

It's at the very heart of the most modern forms of christianity today.

Yeah, it's based on older concepts, such as animal sacrifice to pay for sins.

But this is the modern version--you don't kill an animal, you kill the most righteous human in history.

That's like going from horse and buggy to the 1966 Ford Mustang in one step.

 

Actually, the validity of Science is demonstrated by citing the historical series of scientific concepts, from the primitive to the sophisticated. Each generation builds upon what the previous generations learned.

[Kharakov]

Hi Pyrotex,

 

That version of God-belief is promoted by the same group that promoted (and I use the term loosely) the geocentric model of the universe (and as far as I know, it hasn't really changed its primitive concepts for a long period of time, which is why they remain primitive: what is good enough for someone who doesn't bathe isn't necessarily good enough for a modern man).

[Kharakov]

I guess I missed it. Where was judgment passed in regards to "primitive theological concepts"?

Check the quote above my comment.

[vetrad]

Hello again and thank you for your replies. I really appreciate the different perspectives you guys can offer in response to my 'question/statement'. The logic and understanding of the physical world here is impressive. Many of the concepts are abstract to my thinking, but do make sense in concept.

 

There were a few references to jesus. At this point in my questions, I am looking for more fundimental logic through how god (a creater) can exist - specifically applying this the Christianity is a jump for me so I would like to lay jesus to rest for now (although it may rise again :hihi:.

 

I had a few commments/observations that I think about sometimes, I was hoping some members here can offer their opinion or comments on these.

 

1) There is the observation that nearly all human communities through the past seem to have developed a kind of religion to explain where they came from. I assume animals do not ponder this. Do you think this evolutionary jump simply comes from our higher intelligence or could this desire to find a god/creator/origin or other explaination to our lives be self-engrained and perhaps purposeful?

 

2) When I sit back and admire the beauty of the night sky (perhaps after a few beers :lol:, it is hard to not feel some connection with the universe. I look at my body and the stars and know they came from the same material. I have a hard time grasping the jump to what actually initiated life (nucleic acids and amno acids spontaneously becoming organized). If this is truly a sponataneous product, then it would seem life is inevitable, given enough time and appropriate conditions on earth (or other planets). So to accept life here as spontaneous, and the universe as vast, I assume you have to believe there are other alien civilizations (past, present or future)?

 

3) There is a tendency to feel what is right or wrong. For example, I hope all of us here would agree to the statement that 'killing babies is wrong'. In the godless world, there is no moral consequence to this action. How do you rationalize knowing some behavior is wrong, when there really is no right or wrong? Fear of consequences or behavior conditioning?

 

4) There seems to be some driving force behind our development/evolution. As I stand back and (from a laymans perspective) look over evolutionary charts, it seems to mimick commercial product devlopments. There is trial and error which leads to breakthroughs. Breakthroughs lead to improvements which are exploited in future models. It seems there is a driving force BEHIND life which is pushing it, rather than all the biological breakthroughs occurring because there is evolutionary force working AGAINST it?

 

5) My last thought goes back to life seeming inevitable, given the right conditions. Could it be that "god" is everywhere in the universe simultaneously at the particle/wave level making it so travel in the universe is not necesary. And he (or she!) was created upon shis demise. Shis demise may have caused the big bang and it's consequences. It would follow, it is inevitable for a planet hospitable to life to form. It would be inevitable life would evolve. It would be inevitable for us (or other civilization) to evolve toward a higher purpose and, in a day in the distant future, evolve to 'gods' ourselves? Upon which we would experience our own collapse, then big bang, and it starts all over again?

 

I really appreciate if you take the time to reply to my thoughts on these matters. My logic may be flawed but I am hoping you can iron it out for me. I apologize if these questions were answered in previous posts. Many of the replies were fairly abstract and I may need to reread - please direct me back to them as needed. Thanks again, -David