Time doesn't exist...?

[Tormod]

Don't confuse the issue with rhetoric. Simply put, time exists within it's own framework.

 

Right. Don't confuse the issue with rhetoric.

[Tormod]

Time is created by gravity right?

 

No, there is no reason to believe that (unless you have some information about it you'd like to share). We know however that gravity can have an impact on the passage of time.

 

"We know exactly what gravity does, and we can predict its effect on things with great accuracy, yet we can't say with any certainty, what it is."

 

Exactly.

[C1ay]

Time is created by gravity right?

 

Time is not created by or dependant on anything. It is truly an independant variable.

[Nismoskyline]

Thank you for stating what the facts really are. Im only 17 and dont know very much, as you can probably tell. I have a feeling I will learn mass amounts of information from this forum though. B)

[lindagarrette]

so, given that time is just there, can it exist without the universe? It kinda' seems that way, but does time still have a beginning? I know no one may really have an answer, but what are your ideas?

According to the Standard Model of the Universe (Big Bang Theory) there was nothing before the universe began, not time, no space, nothing. String Theory proposes other solutions but it's still in early research.

[pgrmdave]

I don't think time exsits, and i thin kwe can exsit without it.

 

Thing exsit and happen in cycles. But we as humans have created "time" (Measurment) to measure the exsitance of somthing in numbers that we can understand

.

 

This isn't true - just like distance exists without measurement, time exists as well. If nobody measured it, there would still be distance, just like there is time.

 

I think, though I could be wrong, that time is changes. As in, if nothing changed at all - no movement at all at any level, there would be no time. I see time less like a river and more like cylinder made of thousands of discs. Each disc is a 'slice' of time, but each disc 'coexists'. We only experiance what we call time through the direction of cause and effect.

[lindagarrette]

.

 

I think, though I could be wrong, that time is changes. As in, if nothing changed at all - no movement at all at any level, there would be no time.

That's a pretty good description. Since we use time to measure events, before there was the universe, there were no events, consequently, no time.

[C1ay]

before there was the universe, there were no events, consequently, no time.

 

I don't think we can say what was or wasn't before our universe. We can speculate but that's all, we can draw no conclusions based on our observations thus far. Maybe an event in a previous universe gave birth to our present universe, for instance.

[maddog]

Einstein is quoted as saying, "Time is method we use to keep everything from

happening all at once". B)

 

Another point is that QM can be worked out for photons independent of time. This

is called the "time independent frame". Another more (though philosophical way

of saying it) is a photon does not "experience" time. I use quotes around the word

experience because I don't mean there is intelligence in the photon. It is just like

the event horizon of a black hole as for a photon. Time is essentially not present

(vanishes). There are case where time is then not essential. The measurement

of time (watch, clock, rotation earth, etc) are convention like the value of money.

Time use as a variable to measure the distance a particle travels, velocity, amount

of work performed, power and so on. In fact most derivatives are taken wrt to

time. This implies there would need be some observer to count the time. The

minimum here is a conciousness (does not need sentience maybe). This is what

Paul was getting at (to collapse the wave function). B)

 

Maddog

[lindagarrette]

Einstein is quoted as saying, "Time is method we use to keep everything from

happening all at once". B)

 

Another point is that QM can be worked out for photons independent of time. This

is called the "time independent frame". Another more (though philosophical way

of saying it) is a photon does not "experience" time. I use quotes around the word

experience because I don't mean there is intelligence in the photon. It is just like

the event horizon of a black hole as for a photon. Time is essentially not present

(vanishes). There are case where time is then not essential. The measurement

of time (watch, clock, rotation earth, etc) are convention like the value of money.

Time use as a variable to measure the distance a particle travels, velocity, amount

of work performed, power and so on. In fact most derivatives are taken wrt to

time. This implies there would need be some observer to count the time. The

minimum here is a conciousness (does not need sentience maybe). This is what

Paul was getting at (to collapse the wave function). B)

 

Maddog

It's my understanding that the observer effect is merely symbolic because it requires statistical analysis to determine the status of a quantum entity. Space/time and quantum effects are not directly related to each other. As you mentioned, at hte quantum level, time is not required for description purposes. A particle can exist in the same place at the same time regardless of the presence of an observer.

[lindagarrette]

I don't think we can say what was or wasn't before our universe. We can speculate but that's all, we can draw no conclusions based on our observations thus far. Maybe an event in a previous universe gave birth to our present universe, for instance.

Anything is possible, however unlikely.

[NomadaNare]

I heard a theory that all time that has ever been and that ever will be all happens at once. It's kinda weird but from our point of view, it makes sense. Discuss

[maddog]

I heard a theory that all time that has ever been and that ever will be all happens at once. It's kinda weird but from our point of view, it makes sense. Discuss

I think you talking of the Many Worlds Theory by Everett (from 50s). Basically this an interpretation of

the wave function describing an event that hasn't actually happened yet. The wave function hasn't yet

collapsed and the outcome is not known. It is as though a bunch of universes existed where all the

variations of this event are all there to collapse into the outcome and it could be any one of them.

Even today it goes in and out of favor...

 

Maddog

[starrmtn001]

I offer this tidbit for your rumination.

 

Seth Quotes Chapter 15

Seth: "Your idea of space and time is determined by your neurological structure. The camouflage is so craftily executed and created by the inner self that you must, by necessity, focus your attention on the physical reality which has been created."

"Time as you experience it is an illusion caused by your own physical senses....The apparent boundaries between past, present and future are only illusions caused by the amount of action you can physically perceive, and so it seems to you that one moment exists and is gone forever, and the next moment comes and like the one before also disappears."

 

"Everything in the universe exists at one time simultaneously. The first words ever spoken still ring through the universe, and in your terms, the last words ever spoken have already been said."

 

"The past, present and future only appear to those who exist within three-dimensional reality. The past exists as a series of electromagnetic connections held in the physical brain and in the nonphysical mind. These electromagnetic connections can be changed."

 

"The future consists of a series of electromagnetic connections in the mind and brain also. In other words, the past and present are real to the same extent. You take it for granted that present action can change the future, but present actions can also change the past."

 

"The past is no more objective or independent from the perceiver than is the present. The electromagnetic connections were largely made by the individual perceiver. The connection can be changed, and such changes are far from uncommon. These changes happen spontaneously on a subconscious basis."

 

"The past is seldom what you remember it to be, for you have already rearranged it from the instant of any given event. The past is being constantly recreated by each individual as attitudes and associations change. This is an actual recreation, not a symbolic one. The child is indeed still within the man, but he is not the child that 'was', for even the child within the man constantly changes."

 

"Every action changes every other action. Therefore, every action in your present affects actions you call past. It is possible to react in the past to an event that has not occurred, and to be influenced by your own future."

 

"It is also possible for an individual to react in the past to an event in the future, which in your terms, may never occur."

 

"Because past, present and future exist simultaneously, there is no reason why you cannot react to an event whether or not it happens to fall within the small field of reality in which you usually observe and participate."

 

"On a subconscious level, you react to many events that have not yet occurred as far as your ego's awareness is concerned. Such reactions are carefully screened out and not admitted to consciousness. The ego finds such instances distracting and annoying, and when forced to admit their validity, will resort to the most far fetched rationalizations to explain them."

 

"No event is predestined. Any given event can be changed not only before and during but after its occurrence. The individual is hardly at the mercy of past events, for he changes them constantly. He is hardly at the mercy of future events, for he changes these not only before but after their happening. An individuals future actions are not dependent upon a concrete finished past, for such a past never existed."

 

"The past is as real as the future, no more or less. There is a part of you that is not locked within physical reality, and that part of you knows that there is only an Eternal Now. The part of you that knows is the whole self, your inner and outer ego (all that you are).

 

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5484/seth15.htm

[lindagarrette]

I offer this tidbit for your rumination.

 

Seth Quotes Chapter 15

"No event is predestined. Any given event can be changed not only before and during but after its occurrence. The individual is hardly at the mercy of past events, for he changes them constantly. He is hardly at the mercy of future events, for he changes these not only before but after their happening. An individuals future actions are not dependent upon a concrete finished past, for such a past never existed."

 

"The past is as real as the future, no more or less. There is a part of you that is not locked within physical reality, and that part of you knows that there is only an Eternal Now. The part of you that knows is the whole self, your inner and outer ego (all that you are).

 

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5484/seth15.htm

What a pile of horse manure.

[starrmtn001]

What a pile of horse manure.

 

I didn't believe you at first so I looked it up.

By gosh . . . you're right!

 

From http://thesaurus.reference.com/

Main Entry: pile

Part of Speech: noun 2

Definition: wealth

Synonyms: affluence, boodle, bundle, dough, fortune, mint, money, pot, riches, roll, tidy sum, wad

 

Main Entry: horse ( i.e. horse sense)

Part of Speech: noun

Definition: common sense

Synonyms: good sense, gumption, levelheadedness, plain sense, savvy, understanding

 

Main Entry: manure (i.e. firtile)

Part of Speech: verb

Definition: make ready

Synonyms: cover, dress, enrich, feed, fructify, generate, germinate, make fruitful, pollinate, procreate, propagate, top-dress, treat.

 

(Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition [v 1.1.1])

:friday: :)

[Fishteacher73]

I just want to make sure I understand you, star.... You are using the "works" of a "man" reached through a ouiji board as support?? :friday:

 

My dog talks to me sometimes....can I use his opinion....He is in for a deterministc universe...