Ionized Water Systems - SCAM ?

[somasimple]

Trolling?

Is it the only response you're able to give when you encounter some contradiction? :)

 

Ion hydration and aqueous solutions of salts

It should be noted, however, that sulfuric acid has many hydration shells and is not completely hydrated, as judged by the heat of mixing, until over 500,000 molecules of water are added to each molecule of H2SO4

[freeztar]

Do you really want anyone here to reply to this?

 

Well, how is a cloud (made from these neutral molecules), able to store the little charges we call thunder and lightning?

 

We are not going to teach, or learn, if antagonism is the MO.

Lightening, different than thunder, manifests from ions in the atmosphere having a different charge than those on the ground. You do realize that water molecules in the air are not pure, right? Thunder is the "boom" and lightening is the "flash".

 

This has nothing to do with what the OP claims.

 

So, you need to either stop acting like a troll, or I'll start putting the heat on. Your choice.

[lemit]

Thank you, Somasimple. I had been trying to remember my childhood experiments (unsanctioned by any school) in ionization and electrolysis.

 

I know that as a general rule, most home water treatment systems are bunk. I was most recently approached about water softeners because my water heater would theoretically build up stuff inside. When I replaced the water heater some 20 years ago, the old one had rusted out because a seam failed. It was completely clean inside--no metal deposits--because the water here is soft.

 

If the ionizers add metals to the water, I hope they do so outside the pipes. If they don't, I know where you can get water softeners to take out those contaminants.

 

--lemit

[modest]

Can water store charge?

 

It happens in clouds frequently. Negative ions in the water droplets collect at the bottom of the cloud and positive ions at the top. The discharge manifests as lightning.

 

...what do you make of the claims made by the authors of the paper that pH tended to aggregate near the electrodes?...

 

That sounds correct to me (although I didn't read the paper).

 

One side of an electrochemical cell looses hydrogen ions as it becomes elemental giving that side an excess of negative OH ions. The other side looses oxygen ions giving it an excess of positive hydrogen ions. This does represent a difference in PH between the two half cells and I imagine physically separating the two sides while it is running would leave a difference in charge between them. It would make a voltaic cell (a battery). Not a very good one, but I'm sure some current could be recovered.

 

~modest

[Pyrotex]

That's what the whole article is about. Read it!

...On its own, it's an interesting study. :)

Okay.

I read it.

:eek_big:

 

[sPOCK] Fascinating, Captain. [/sPOCK]

 

Well, blow me down and call me a taxi.

 

Pyrotex, Slayer of Bad Memes, sheathes his mighty sword and capitulates!

 

:bouquet:

:bouquet:

:bouquet:

 

Water can be "charged up"!!

 

(Actually no excess charge was inputed--the water was polarized into two regions, each having an excess but opposite charge. But the context of the article makes it clear what the authors meant.)

 

This means that energy can be stored and recovered from water.

 

Yes. Fascinating. But I wouldn't get my hopes up. We're talking about 0.1 volts and a fraction of a milliamp for less than one hour, out of several kilograms of water.

 

An ordinary D-battery (like the one in my alarm clock) will give you 1.5 volts at one milliamp for over a Year. So keep this in perspective.

 

All the same, it is still absolutely fascinating. I have learned something NEW. I have been proved wrong. And it feels marvelous!! :)

[Pyrotex]

You know, of course, that this explains the separation of charge in electrical storms.

[turbone]

Sorry to resurrect a old thread, but I'm looking for answers.

My fiancée wants to buy one these water ionizers and I think its a scam.

During my searches on the net, I found this forum and thread. After reading all the posts here, the initial question wasnt clearly answered.

I have a little science background, but a tad more common sense.

So my question here is, if the water stores a charge (even for a short time) it still dissipates therefore having little benefit for human consumption.

If these machines change the pH to acidic or alkaline, does the body's metabolism change it to a neutral pH (7.0)?

 

Heres a link to what the company explains about it, with other links on the side menu.

http://www.ionways.com/water_ionization_default.aspx

 

I really dont want her spending over $2k on something thats going to do nothing.

I think a Britta is more beneficial than one of these things.

[CraigD]

My fiancée wants to buy one these water ionizers and I'm trying to talk her out of it by proving its a scam.

...

Heres a link to what the company explains about it, with other links on the side menu.

http://www.ionways.com/water_ionization_default.aspx

This thread and many others question if drinking alkali water has any health benefits. As many well-controlled studies of the question have shown that drinking water and other liquids within a safe pH range in moderation have neither positive nor negative impact on health, claims that they do are either fraudulent or well-meaning but ill-informed. The company website to which you link appears to be very careful not to publish any such overt claims, though their discussing health issues in close proximity to discussing their water ionizers is, IMHO, an attempt to scam customers without making any legally actionable false claims.

 

Provided you understand these machines don’t offer proven, or even likely, health benefits, I can’t find any compelling objections to having one, other than, possibly, cost.

 

I really dont want her spending over $2k on something thats going to do nothing.

I think a Britta is more beneficial than one of these things.

That is a lot to spend, but in their defense, these machines do have better filters than the simple low-pressure ones used in Brittas and other common inexpensive products, so if you’re willing to pay a lot for better quality, machines like these may be for you.

 

If your water supply is low quality – from an aging/decaying municipal system, or a polluted private well or stream, a high-end filter like this could protect you from various nastinesses better than cheaper ones – though these machines aren’t do-all water treatment devices, so in situations like these, you might need other equipment to avoid damaging your expensive filter/ionizer machine.

 

I’ve tried alkali water, and can attest that it has an interesting, not unpleasant taste, so if nothing else, these machines can be considered culinary accessories.

 

According to the linked website’s information, the better models can produce water of a wide range of pH, including acidic solutions that can be used as mild cleansers and disinfectants, so they also have some practical household value.

 

Some of the machines are also pretty, so have some decorative value.

 

From a medical perspective, I think it’s important to understand that the health benefits of even uncontroversial, proven antioxidants, such as doses of vitamin C or E far in excess of dietary needs, is not scientifically proven. This 2007 JAMA article even presented fairly compelling statistical evidence that antioxidants may actually be bad for you – increase you risk or death or illness. An offered explanation is that the effects of free radicals may not be entirely deleterious, but may actually be important to “train” your body to resist disease and toxins. I don’t think water ionizers actually deliver significant antioxidants to your body, but many dietary supplements that someone interested in these machines might consider taking do. I recommend avoiding them.

[Barnaby]

So this long discussion and bogus such this n that but what about remembering simple chemistry and physics. Water is not as simple as H20. It can lose a proton and another molecule can pick it up and this happens a lot and at some potential energy. If you lower or raise that potential energy you change the dynamics of the water molecule. In this case they send a current through which a polarises the water reserviour because now you have two different potentials at either end so water can exist more freely as H+ and -OH and you get a gradient due to the two electrodes.

 

The article is fine and languir is a good journal there are no issues there. As far as the original post about the SCAM thing just remember your body needs electrolytes which are ions so if you don't get them from other sources "ionised" water may be a good thing for you. We are not talking about H+ and -OH water here though we are talking about water with ions in it. If it is about it being ionised in a sens that it is H+ and -OH that is bogus. Just go to a faucet in that case drink some slightly acidic or basic water.

[CraigD]

Welcome to hypography, Barnaby! :) You seem to have some affection for and knowledge of chemistry, but a couple things in your post, especially some physiology, bothered me:

 

Water is not as simple as H20.

Pure water is simply a liquid consisting of many [ce]H_2O[/ce] molecules.

 

Although some people like highly purified (no water exposed to air, let alone human mouths and guts, can remain completely pure), I, and I think most people, think water with various mixtures of mineral, chemicals, organic matter, and dissolved gasses, tastes better.

 

It can lose a proton and another molecule can pick it up and this happens a lot and at some potential energy.

I believe you mean an atom (or molecule) can lose an electron and another one pick it up. Losing or gaining an electron results in an atom with less or more electrons than protons, which is called an ion.

 

If an atomic nucleus loses a proton, it becomes not only an ion, but a different element – that is, its atomic number changes. Ordinarily, this happens only when radioactive elements (most have atomic numbers over 81) decay.

 

Since hydrogen has an atomic number of 1, if an atom of it “loses a proton”, it’s no longer there. So, in a sense, we can say a molecule “loses a proton” to mean “loses a hydrogen atom”.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by “at some potential energy”.

 

If you lower or raise that potential energy you change the dynamics of the water molecule. In this case they send a current through which a polarises the water reserviour because now you have two different potentials at either end so water can exist more freely as H+ and -OH and you get a gradient due to the two electrodes.

Changes in acidity (the pH or pOH) of water is due to small fractions (for neutral, pH=7 water, 1 [ce]H_3O^+[/ce] for every 9,999,999 [ce]H_2O[/ce]) of [ce]H_3O^+[/ce] and [ce]HO^-[/ce] molecules among many [ce]H_2O[/ce] molecules. Although a low pH could occur if [ce]H_2O[/ce] were split in to H+ and OH- molecules, I don’t think this can persist long, as the resulting hydrogen gas wouldn’t stay dissolved long.

 

As far as the original post about the SCAM thing just remember your body needs electrolytes which are ions so if you don't get them from other sources "ionised" water may be a good thing for you.

The electrolytes needed by your body are mostly [ce]Ca^{++}[/ce], [ce]Na^+[/ce] and [ce]K^+[/ce].

 

[ce]H_3O^+[/ce] and [ce]HO^-[/ce] aren’t metabolically important, though having too high or low a pH in your blood or digestive tract can cause illness. Blood pH is regulated automatically by your body, and usually varies when you can’t breathe properly, or due to disease. Stomach pH can be upset by eating or drinking too much bad stuff.

 

We are not talking about H+ and -OH water here though we are talking about water with ions in it.

[ce]H_3O^+[/ce] and [ce]HO^-[/ce] in it is water with ions in it.

[Chemnut]

Welcome to hypography, Barnaby! :) You seem to have some affection for and knowledge of chemistry, but a couple things in your post, especially some physiology, bothered me:

 

 

Pure water is simply a liquid consisting of many [ce]H_2O[/ce] molecules.

 

Although some people like highly purified (no water exposed to air, let alone human mouths and guts, can remain completely pure), I, and I think most people, think water with various mixtures of mineral, chemicals, organic matter, and dissolved gasses, tastes better.

 

 

I believe you mean an atom (or molecule) can lose an electron and another one pick it up. Losing or gaining an electron results in an atom with less or more electrons than protons, which is called an ion.

 

If an atomic nucleus loses a proton, it becomes not only an ion, but a different element – that is, its atomic number changes. Ordinarily, this happens only when radioactive elements (most have atomic numbers over 81) decay.

 

Since hydrogen has an atomic number of 1, if an atom of it “loses a proton”, it’s no longer there. So, in a sense, we can say a molecule “loses a proton” to mean “loses a hydrogen atom”.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by “at some potential energy”.

 

 

Changes in acidity (the pH or pOH) of water is due to small fractions (for neutral, pH=7 water, 1 [ce]H_3O^+[/ce] for every 9,999,999 [ce]H_2O[/ce]) of [ce]H_3O^+[/ce] and [ce]HO^-[/ce] molecules among many [ce]H_2O[/ce] molecules. Although a low pH could occur if [ce]H_2O[/ce] were split in to H+ and OH- molecules, I don’t think this can persist long, as the resulting hydrogen gas wouldn’t stay dissolved long.

 

 

The electrolytes needed by your body are mostly [ce]Ca^{++}[/ce], [ce]Na^+[/ce] and [ce]K^+[/ce].

 

[ce]H_3O^+[/ce] and [ce]HO^-[/ce] aren’t metabolically important, though having too high or low a pH in your blood or digestive tract can cause illness. Blood pH is regulated automatically by your body, and usually varies when you can’t breathe properly, or due to disease. Stomach pH can be upset by eating or drinking too much bad stuff.

 

 

[ce]H_3O^+[/ce] and [ce]HO^-[/ce] in it is water with ions in it.

 

 

I will add a few more details to this discussion. I have studied water ionizers/alkaline water generators a bit and have concluded that these are the most expensive water filters/water sanitizers around. I don't know where the world draws the line between valid, beneficial and quackery/scam, but I would call these devices a scam. (Britta ~$40, Water ionizers/alkaline water generators/water electrolyzers ~$750-3500+). Most, if not all, of the ads for these electrolyzers have nothing but positive information in them (red flag, I'm skeptical). They all have a thread of truth and a thread of sound science (selective science for best marketing purposes). Many assumptions, testimonials that cannot be proven or disproven, and many baseless statements are made in the marketing of these devices. 1) All water is the same. 2) All current water in the world is not as good for you as the alkaline water generated by one of these ionizers/electrolyzers. 4) It worked/s for me and worked for others. 5) Visual results that appear to have merit, but really have no basis. etc., etc. Before buying, I would say "Show me the data. Show me the proof". Most of these are sold on and with emotions.

 

On the Chemistry:

 

Pure water is made up of Hydrogen and Oxygen (H₂O). That is as simple as it gets. Most water in the world contains a mixture of several ions, atoms, and molecules. Water varies drastically around the world from fairly pure rainwater to very brackish, briny water (dead sea and evaporation basins) to waters that have been contaminated with various organic and inorganic compounds, etc.

 

Water ionizers/alkaline water generators/water electrolyzers electrolyze water and the constituents contained in that water. This is an oxidation reduction process. H₂0-->H₂ +O₂ Hydrogen and Oxygen gasses are formed and bubble through or boil out of the remaining water. I believe the remaining water still has the same pH as it did before it was electrolyzed. Depending on the constituents present determines the other oxidation reduction reactions that occur and may affect the pH. If you have Cl^-present, it is likely to be converted to Cl₂ or ClO^-(a sanitizing or sterilizing agent). If CO₃^2- is present, it will be converted to CO.

 

I drink well water. I have my own source of alkaline water. I had my well water tested for all the constituents present. My water (H₂0) contained: Ca²⁺, Mg²⁺, Na⁺, SO₄^2- in nearly equal amounts (20-25ppm), Cl^- 8ppm, NO₃^-0.3 ppm, Bicarbonate 217 ppm, F^-0.67 ppm, As 0.01 ppm, Fe 0.09 ppm, Mn²⁺ 0.03 ppm, Zn²⁺ 0.25ppm, Ba²⁺ 0.11 ppm, Silica (SiO₂)37 ppm. The pH was 7.66. This is clearly an alkaline water. It comes from a carbonate based aquifer. All these constituents would make a very complicated redox process.

 

Not all waters will be converted from the assumed acidic water to alkaline water after being electrolyzed. Some waters, like mine, are already alkaline.

 

A good amount of information can be gleaned from this patent USPatent 07691249 as most devices are a variation of this. I warn all, however, patents are used to protect the marketing of that contained in the patent. The science, data or proof, is often selective and incomplete.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Chemnut

[joekgamer]

To find out you'd have to conduct a study on it, but I'd hazard a guess that any health benefits would be so small as to be insignificant.

[canti]

I would like to add in on this very interesting post. My father has one of these water Ionizers, but after reading a bit on the subject I am still unsure either way.

 

He has an instrument which measures the ORP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_potential) and also a pH testing kit. His water straight from the tap has a pH of a shade under 7 and and ORP reading around 0. Straight out of the Ionizer it has a pH of between 9.5 and 10 and an ORP reading of around -240. The ORP value drops steadily as time goes on, but still has a reasonable negative value the next day. There is also a waste outlet which outputs water at around 2.5 - 4 pH.

 

So, the water does have a negative ORP and much higher pH. But I am weary of the health benefits from this point forward.

 

The three main claims seem to be:

1. Ionizers produce an electron rich antioxident water which is able to reduce cell damage caused by free radicals.

2. They produce high pH Alkaline water, which helps neutralise acid within the cells of the body.

3. Cell clusters are smaller, meaning clusters of 6-7 rather than 14-15, which means easier absorption through cell walls and therefore better cell hydration.

 

#1.So the water does have a negative ORP reading - does this really mean that it now has the ability to neutralize some types of free radicals? I can see an antioxident like vitamin C having this effect, and making it as far as the cells where it is needed, but I am skeptical whether the water would do the same. The whole free radical/antioxident area of science is still pretty new, and it's hard to substatiate these claims.

 

#2 Many scientists will say no way, because the high alkaline water gets brought back into the bodys comfortable range before it has a chance to reach any areas where it may be useful. It's too big a topic for this post.

 

#3 Do smaller clusters mean better absorption through the cell wall? One site purports that when we are born we are 90% water. By age 20 we are around 70% and in our later years we are down to 50%. This decreases our cells ability to remove toxic substances, and decreases our health on a cellular level leading to ill health and disease.

 

The water certainly tastes nice, and I find myself drinking a lot more when I stay at my dad's. It seems more refrehing somehow - but then this could be for a myriad of reasons.

 

The problem is that almost everything one can read about these ionizers is marketing speak - constant emotive language designed to sell you the dream rather than present the hard facts. This is a red flag to me. On the other hand, I try to take into account that 'alternative' medicine is a small voice in a larger crowd, and needs to be shouting in order to get any share of the business at all. For them, I suspect it makes better economic sense be selling and preaching rather than spending their budgets on scientific research. At this point it takes on religios conotations, and often these things are sold on faith alone. If there is any science out there, I wish these manufactures could put it on their sites so the more skeptical could dig through.

 

Any thoughts on these points? Specifically the ORP effect and the smaller clusters/hydration effects?

 

All the best, Joe

 

 

PS dad also tested his first ionizer - a ph ion jug similar to a brita filter. it had an ORP of around -115 and boosted the ph to between 8.5 and 9.5. Its about £60 or £70 so might be worth a try before you go investing thousands into an electric one.

[Turtle]

I would like to add in on this very interesting post. My father has one of these water Ionizers, but after reading a bit on the subject I am still unsure either way.

 

He has an instrument which measures the ORP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_potential) and also a pH testing kit. His water straight from the tap has a pH of a shade under 7 and and ORP reading around 0. Straight out of the Ionizer it has a pH of between 9.5 and 10 and an ORP reading of around -240. The ORP value drops steadily as time goes on, but still has a reasonable negative value the next day. There is also a waste outlet which outputs water at around 2.5 - 4 pH.

 

So, the water does have a negative ORP and much higher pH. But I am weary of the health benefits from this point forward.

 

The three main claims seem to be:

1. Ionizers produce an electron rich antioxident water which is able to reduce cell damage caused by free radicals.

...

 

just a point on #1, as i recently heard something on risks of taking too many anti-oxidants. i have a bit from one source; just the first i found searching "anti-oxidants bad".

 

i find the author's last quote of much wider application.

 

...

Free radicals are highly reactive molecules or single atoms with unpaired electrons looking for a mate. So they steal an electron from the first thing they encounter, perhaps a cell wall or DNA. As free-radical damage mounts, cells can no longer perform properly. Disease sets in. An excess of free radicals has been cited in cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease and cancer.

 

Aging itself has been defined as a gradual accumulation of free-radical damage.

 

Yet free radicals are necessary for life. The body's ability to turn air and food into chemical energy depends on a chain reaction of free radicals. Free radicals are also a crucial part of the immune system, floating through the veins and attacking foreign invaders.

Hydrogen peroxide is a prime example of a free radical. Your blood actually contains trace amounts of hydrogen peroxide, an internal germ fighter. In fact, you could not fight bacteria without free radicals.

 

Good luck

 

How antioxidants work is an utter mystery, which explains the contradicting results of very large and well-conducted studies in the past decade showing, for example, that vitamin E slowed the progress of coronary artery disease but increased the risk of a heart attack.

 

One thing that studies do reveal is that a diet rich in antioxidants, as opposed to supplements, is associated with lower rates of cancer and circulatory disease. Richard Veech of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, whom I interviewed a few years ago, sums it up best, I think:

 

"People don't want to exercise," he said. "They don't want to eat healthy food. They don't want to stop drinking; they don't want to stop smoking; they don't want to stop having dangerous sex. They want to take a pill. Well, good luck."

 

full article: >> Vitamin Mania: The Truth about Antioxidants

[canti]

Very interesting - there clearly needs to be a lot more research on the subject. It's an important point that free radicals are actually needed for proper bodily function. There are also many different types of free radicals with different properties.

 

In a world where all that's needed is a manufacturers headline, the message is simple. Free radicals = the bad guys, and eating and drinking antioxidants by the gallon = a way to live to 150, reverse the ageing process, and prevent all known diseases :)

 

It would be interesting to know what free radicals did what in the body? EG which ones cause DNA to mutate, which ones fight harmful bacteria etc etc. Anybody know of any studies into this?

 

So back to the Ionizers. I still have not found anything that is scientifically encouranging. Maybe I need to be researching in Japanese, since that is where much of the progress has been made.

 

#1 - pH - not much science exists about the benefits of Alkaline water. Sure, cancer cells cannot survive in a high pH environment, but there is nothing to suggest that drinking this water raises the pH of your body at all. The only thing I guess might be hopeful is to reduce the strain on the bodies own pH regulating process.

 

#2 Antioxident - This area of science is new, and free radicals are not fully understood. More research is needed, so it may be beneficial, but there doesnt seem to be anything really concrete for which these claims are based on.

 

#3 - Better hydration through smaller clusters of water. I have no idea if this it right or not. The optimist in me says it makes sense, but the cynic in me says surely millions of years of evolution would have adapted our bodies to make the best use of naturally occuring water??

 

 

Anyway, I read that the Ionizer industry is now a billion dollar industry - so PLEASE manufactirers invest in some scientific studies. If they are so great SHOW US THE SCIENCE!!!

 

Don't make it into a battle of faith - evidence is the best way to tame the cynics.

 

Joe

[JMJones0424]

pH - not much science exists about the benefits of Alkaline water.

Sorry to be nitpicky, but pH is not a measure of alkalinity. The proper term is basicity. Alkalinity refers to the amount of buffer in a solution, usually measured as calcium carbonate equivalent, with units like ppm, mg/L, mEq/L, or German degrees.

 

Although, if you are searching on the internet, the misuse of alkalinity as a synonym for basicity is so rampant that you have to really pay attention to what substance is actually being measured - carbonate or similar ions (alkalinity), or ions of H⁺(acidity/basicity).

[Turtle]

Very interesting - there clearly needs to be a lot more research on the subject. It's an important point that free radicals are actually needed for proper bodily function. There are also many different types of free radicals with different properties.

 

In a world where all that's needed is a manufacturers headline, the message is simple. Free radicals = the bad guys, and eating and drinking antioxidants by the gallon = a way to live to 150, reverse the ageing process, and prevent all known diseases :)

...

Don't make it into a battle of faith - evidence is the best way to tame the cynics.

 

Joe

 

all else being equal, it seems simply eating less may help us on the way to 150.

 

DIETING, according to an old joke, may not actually make you live longer, but it sure feels that way. Nevertheless, evidence has been accumulating since the 1930s that calorie restriction—reducing an animal's energy intake below its energy expenditure—extends lifespan and delays the onset of age-related diseases in rats, dogs, fish and monkeys. Such results have inspired thousands of people to put up with constant hunger in the hope of living longer, healthier lives. They have also led to a search for drugs that mimic the effects of calorie restriction without the pain of going on an actual diet.

 

Amid the hype, it is easy to forget that no one has until now shown that calorie restriction works in humans. That omission, however, changed this month, with the publication of the initial results of the first systematic investigation into the matter. This study, known as CALERIE (Comprehensive Assessment of Long-term Effects of Reducing Intake of Energy), was sponsored by America's National Institutes of Health.

 

...

Xenohormesis is a variation of a more general theory, hormesis, which interests Suresh Rattan of Aarhus University in Denmark. A good example of hormesis is exercise. In theory, this should damage cells because it increases oxygen uptake, and oxidative stress is bad for things like DNA. Of course, exercise is not actually bad for cells—and the reason is that the body activates defence mechanisms which overcompensate for the stress the exercise creates, producing beneficial effects. So, while chronic stress is always bad for you, a short period of mild stress followed by a period of recovery can be good.

...

 

full article: >> Eat less, live more