Where does intelligence come from?

[Fishteacher73]

There are certain trees that "communicate" by releasing pheromones to other threes in response to various swarms of insects that allow them to be less paliatable to the insects.

 

 

There are many examples of animals having much better memory than humans. Just about any migratory animal embarasses the human ability to orienteer.

There are also examples of animals developing long and complex memory chains. Elephants are well known for their memories of companions. Koko the gorillia has learned sign language.

[Biochemist]

I deserve every sarcastic remark I'll get :) , but in my own defense what I meant was that apes would attain our intellectual level if they had the same capacity to store memory. (I could still be wrong, but that's what I meant)

Thanks for appreciating the sarcasm. :)

 

I think the real different between primates and humans is qualititive, not quantitative. Humans are certainly more intelligent (in the IQ sense) tha primates, and have developed more productive capacity because of it. But I think our elements of creativity are the most sophisticated, and represent the pinnacle of humanness. I, frankly, can't imagine the test to prove that primates do not have creativity, so I would have to characterize my opinion as more of a notion.

[Biochemist]

This ignorance sounds incredible to us today, so maybe our children might think the same of our ideas regarding plants.

And we should probably keep in mind that a lot of comentators on daytime news shows seem to have about the same insight as your typical rhododendron.

[C1ay]

Humans are certainly more intelligent (in the IQ sense) tha primates, and have developed more productive capacity because of it.

 

Is creativety and the ability to produce a real measure of IQ? I have heard that dolphins may be much more intelligent than we are. They don't seem to be creative or productive though. Does that mean they have a low IQ?

[Fishteacher73]

Creativity can be seen in their play...

As for productivity... who is smarter, the guy working and sweating in the factory or they guy that can surf all day?

[Apes Anonymous]

I think the real different between primates and humans is qualititive, not quantitative. Humans are certainly more intelligent (in the IQ sense) tha primates, and have developed more productive capacity because of it. But I think our elements of creativity are the most sophisticated, and represent the pinnacle of humanness. I, frankly, can't imagine the test to prove that primates do not have creativity, so I would have to characterize my opinion as more of a notion.

You're probably right. On the other hand it would be interesting to see how a human would compare to apes once we take away from him all the cultural baggage we have accumulated through the millenia. In other words, a human raised by apes would have an intellectual capacity comparable to that of chimps. If that were true it would be an indication of the importance of memory to our education and overall intellect.

[Biochemist]

Is creativety and the ability to produce a real measure of IQ? I have heard that dolphins may be much more intelligent than we are. They don't seem to be creative or productive though. Does that mean they have a low IQ?

I was advocating that creativity and intelligence are separate, and that creativity is unique to humans. I can't substantiate it. I do understand FT's point about the "play" of dolphins, and it is a good one.

[C1ay]

I was advocating that creativity and intelligence are separate, and that creativity is unique to humans. I can't substantiate it. I do understand FT's point about the "play" of dolphins, and it is a good one.

 

Creativity unique to humans? Beaver dams are not creative? The displays some birds build to attract a mate? The traps which trapdoor spiders make to catch their prey? The designs other spiders made in their webs to attract prey? The adornments that decorate the shell of the hermit crab? And on and on and on..... None of this is creativity?

[Queso]

i've heard of elephants painting too...but that could just be random. c1ay has a point...but the things he stated are all means of survival, somewhat. that's their lifestyle. not everybody paints, or writes, or creates music......but mostly all beavers make dams..right?

[Biochemist]

i've heard of elephants painting too...

Yes, but can they do edging and trim?

 

Just kidding.

[Fishteacher73]

I feel that any learning is linked to creativity. Granted there might be A LOT of trial and error, but soon the hermit crab learns that he is more successful if he uses sea anemoneas on his shell (there are even crabs that will brandish them as weapons) than just a chunk of seaweed or a sponge. Yet creativity stems to a essence of free-will. If the outcome is deterministic, the process is just movements and the "creativity" is just the result of a long sting of inputs. (Hate to pull this out in this thread, but I feel it is at least valid in some context of what is being talked about).

 

As for the painting elephant, I have seen one that actually paints close representations of objects (Such as the barn and matched apropriate colors, etc).

[Biochemist]

I feel that any learning is linked to creativity.

I think we can get definitive about part of this. Creativity in normal usage is broadly construed, and I I don't mean to critique that. But the usage of "creativity" that can be contrasted with intelligence is the component that generates ideas de novo. This is (by definition) part and parcel with the capacity for free will, in that it is technically impossible within a deterministic framework (again, unless we invoke a creator).

 

I think learning is clearly possible in a deterministic framework. Creativity is not, and I mean only to refine the definition.

[lindagarrette]

I think we can get definitive about part of this. Creativity in normal usage is broadly construed, and I I don't mean to critique that. But the usage of "creativity" that can be contrasted with intelligence is the component that generates ideas de novo. This is (by definition) part and parcel with the capacity for free will, in that it is technically impossible within a deterministic framework (again, unless we invoke a creator).

 

I think learning is clearly possible in a deterministic framework. Creativity is not, and I mean only to refine the definition.

You're not paying attention again. How could anything be created without a basis or frame of reference? Except e a miracle, (or the BB, which is yet to be determined).

[Biochemist]

Creativity unique to humans? Beaver dams are not creative? The displays some birds build to attract a mate? The traps which trapdoor spiders make to catch their prey? The designs other spiders made in their webs to attract prey? The adornments that decorate the shell of the hermit crab? And on and on and on..... None of this is creativity?

Well, no. To the extent that characteristics of a species are repetitive (spider webs,mating dances, beaver dams, etc) I would argue they are not creative. One could argue they reflect the diversity and creativity of the Creator, but not the spider (for example).

 

Creativity is (by definition) generation of work product de novo.

[Biochemist]

You're not paying attention again. How could anything be created without a basis or frame of reference? Except e a miracle, (or the BB, which is yet to be determined).

Sorry, LG- I don't understand what you said. As I recall, you were advocating that free will does not exist (which is an internally consistent view for a non-theist). Are you arguing that creativity does??? I am not sure what point you were making.

[C1ay]

Well, no. To the extent that characteristics of a species are repetitive (spider webs,mating dances, beaver dams, etc) I would argue they are not creative. One could argue they reflect the diversity and creativity of the Creator, but not the spider (for example).

 

Creativity is (by definition) generation of work product de novo.

 

Unlike the orb weaving spider which does just produce the same web it's species always creates, the beaver build a dam that is unique to the conditions. He repairs and maintains it as needed. He particularly constructs chambers that will not be vulnerable to predators or rising waters. Does he not generate a work product?

 

Some birds make very elaborate, decorative displays and assemblies to attract a mate. They do not just simply mimic their peers, they compete with each other and try to out do each other with flashier attractions than their peers.

 

The hermit crab does not just gather any rocks or plants for his shell. He tries to find those that will blend end the best with his current surroundings. Given the opportunity he will use a sea anemone so that he can use it defensively as well.

 

Chimpanzees that have been taught signs from sign language have shown the ability to combine signs to represent ideas like "drink" and "fruit" to represent watermelon. A bonobo chimp named Kanzi acquired a vocabulary of 200 words. Kanzi was able to construct sentences using words and gestures. Kanzi's most notable accomplishment was captured on videotape: he was told, "Give the dog a shot," and he proceeded to inject his stuffed dog with a syringe.

 

At the very least would you say animal creativity might be possible or do you just rule out the possibility completely? Which would you consider to be more open minded?

[Biochemist]

At the very least would you say animal creativity might be possible or do you just rule out the possibility completely? Which would you consider to be more open minded?

These are persuasive points. The learning capacity is certainly signifcant in the examples you offered.

 

My main point was initially more philosophical (e.g., if the universe is deterministic then there is no free will, ergo creativity is impossible). If one were to accept that position, then we have an illusion of free will and creativity wherever it is observed.

 

If one were to accept the theistic position that free will exists, only because it was exempted from the deterministic framework by the Creator, then free will can exist (i.e., it is not an illusion) and the same Creator could have granted some of that same capacity to animals.

 

To directly answer your question, I don't personally have a position on the notion of creativity in animals. You examples are good and thought provoking.