Where does intelligence come from?

[infamous]

These are persuasive points. The learning capacity is certainly signifcant in the examples you offered.

 

My main point was initially more philosophical (e.g., if the universe is deterministic then there is no free will, ergo creativity is impossible). If one were to accept that position, then we have an illusion of free will and creativity wherever it is observed.

 

If one were to accept the theistic position that free will exists, only because it was exempted from the deterministic framework by the Creator, then free will can exist (i.e., it is not an illusion) and the same Creator could have granted some of that same capacity to animals.

 

To directly answer your question, I don't personally have a position on the notion of creativity in animals. You examples are good and thought provoking.

 

Not all theistic positions are based on free will. Have you ever heard of the term; Predestination. Calvanists would disagree that free will exists.

[Will]

Is it possible that any plants have intelligence?

 

Flowers evolve in bright colors which attract bees. The bees collect pollen from the flowers and spread that pollen in the process causing pollination to occur. Is there any underlying intelligence in this?

 

I read somewhere that certain trees allow the giraffes to graze a certain amount and then release a distasteful toxin when the tree needs time to recover. Is this an intelligent response?

 

Certain plants form symbiotic relation ships with animals. I think I remember seeing a show on a plant in South America that produces a certain sap to attract a particular species of ant. This ant is an enemy of another parasite that feeds on this plant. Is this another intelligent response?

 

A recent article here covers a plants ability to bypass genetic abnormalities in it's parents and revert to traits from it's grandparents. Is this information stored inside some kind of memory? Is it a sign of intelligence?

 

Is it possible that all life forms have some kind of intelligence?

 

for me intelligence requires a consciousness.. but maybe trees have it, but they're too humble to interfere with the affairs of humans. they just watch.. grow old and wise. i love trees.. they're incredible.

[TINNY]

intelligence is the ability to use symbolic language. intertwined with this ability is free-will.

[pgrmdave]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think that intelligence stems in large part from the brain's ability to reprogram itself. We have senses which provide input and a body which provides output. If it were a strict computer, the brain would react the same way every time. Even if it was in an extremely logical, efficiant manner, it wouldn't be intelligent. The intelligence comes from the fact that not only does our brain process the stimuli, but it is itself affected by the stimuli.

[TINNY]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think that intelligence stems in large part from the brain's ability to reprogram itself. We have senses which provide input and a body which provides output. If it were a strict computer, the brain would react the same way every time. Even if it was in an extremely logical, efficiant manner, it wouldn't be intelligent. The intelligence comes from the fact that not only does our brain process the stimuli, but it is itself affected by the stimuli.

You contradict yourself - The brain reprograms itself... the brain is programmed by the stimuli.

Anyway, the brain cannot reprogram itself unless a stimuli forces the brain to do so (unless you believe in freewill). therefore, what is the significance of what you are saying?? still a robot to me. it just receives input and produces an output from that input. If the stimuli was the same, the brain would reprogram itself in teh same manner and produce exactly the same output.

[Will]

by thinking one way and then questioning the way we think, or by learning one thing and then learning something and believing it over the previous thing we learned we are reprogramming our minds i suppose.

 

do you not believe in free-will tinny? are we all pawns of fate?

[lindagarrette]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think that intelligence stems in large part from the brain's ability to reprogram itself. We have senses which provide input and a body which provides output. If it were a strict computer, the brain would react the same way every time. Even if it was in an extremely logical, efficiant manner, it wouldn't be intelligent. The intelligence comes from the fact that not only does our brain process the stimuli, but it is itself affected by the stimuli.

The brain's intelligence is hardwired. Learning occurs much the same way as in neural networks. Inputs are evaluated through boolean logic and levels binarily adjusted depending on positive or negative reactions to stimuli. It is much more complicated than your conjecture. For more detail go to the generation5 website.

[Biochemist]

Learning occurs much the same way as in neural networks.

I was chuckling at this a little. The brain is a neural network. That is where the metaphor in computing came from.

Inputs are evaluated through boolean logic and levels binarily adjusted depending on positive or negative reactions to stimuli.....

I think the boolean metaphor is valid, but I don't think the binary part is a fair representation. Individual brain neurons have (typically) several thousand input connections on their dendrites. Each input connection, if fired, causes a local "action potential" in the neuron cell membrane close to the connection. If the cumulative effect of inputs (either a single large one or multiple smaller ones) reaches a threshold, it fires an action potential down the axon of the neuron. The output is binary (on or off) but the input is essentially analog summation.

 

And they are complicated little beggars.

[TINNY]

by thinking one way and then questioning the way we think, or by learning one thing and then learning something and believing it over the previous thing we learned we are reprogramming our minds i suppose.

We are reprogramming our minds, YES. but the 'reprogramming our minds' is also determined, according to determinists.

 

do you not believe in free-will tinny? are we all pawns of fate?

I do believe. But I have to be fair. PG's argument is invalid.

[Will]

well these have all been very interesting points and i'm wondering if our arguments have become exhausted with time..

[motherengine]

I know I'm young so there is so much I haven't figured out (and won't figure out). But where do you think intelligence comes from? And doesn't it feel odd that of all the life on this planet, our intelligence is so much greater than other thinking creatures? I don't intend to sound arrogant, because I love animals and I think that they are extremely intuitive and smart, but is it purely luck and coincedence or do you think their is some greater meaning to our intellect?

 

an octopus may have no reason to build towers or write journals but then an octopus is not a mammal or a land animal. it may that no one will ever know why humans are so aggressively aware of themselves and their environment. developed slime crawlers, alien experiments, god's creations or other? thing is what makes people appreciate beauty and atmosphere is a more curious question to me due to the fact that it is not our intellect that makes us (seem to?) stand out but other behavioral aspects that sit more uncomfortably in darwins lap.

[Will]

i agree with you, but do you think this gift we possess (awareness), is what intelligence is? some people do i think.. i personally believe that there's an element of intelligence, but that creatures that may not be as contemplative or aware as we are, may be intelligent.

 

but you raise an interesting thought that perhaps deserves its own thread. if you were to create one i would discuss it further with you.. (or here works too, i guess)

[Queso]

awareness is not a gift. i think awareness is actually linked with paranoia.

[paultrr]

an octopus may have no reason to build towers or write journals but then an octopus is not a mammal or a land animal. it may that no one will ever know why humans are so aggressively aware of themselves and their environment. developed slime crawlers, alien experiments, god's creations or other? thing is what makes people appreciate beauty and atmosphere is a more curious question to me due to the fact that it is not our intellect that makes us (seem to?) stand out but other behavioral aspects that sit more uncomfortably in darwins lap.

 

True about the uncomfortable sitting in Darwin's lap? Human behavioral aspects are hard at times to fully pin down and codify. We human's have this unlogical tendency to leap beyond the rational when we choose to.

[paultrr]

We are reprogramming our minds, YES. but the 'reprogramming our minds' is also determined, according to determinists.

 

I do believe. But I have to be fair. PG's argument is invalid.

 

But can we say for sure that even the reprograming at all levels is not subject to anything random?

[Fishteacher73]

But can we say for sure that even the reprograming at all levels is not subject to anything random?

 

 

Can we show that anything is random? The closest concept of random occurs at the quantum level, and even that is an arguable issue.

[Will]

can anything be truly random though? we are able to understand the concept of randomness, but could any event actually be random?