Legal execution and spectators

[sanctus]

Fishteacher wrote in another thread:

 

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I think it was quite the spectator event. Just look at the throngs of people that show up outside the prisons when they execute someone.

 

My quastion does this really happen? I mean they don't even see it if I understood right.

 

Assuming that it really happens what is the reason that pushes people to go and watch? I can imagine that some do it for hatred and the satisfaction of their vengeance feelings, but are there so many people full of hatred?

[bumab]

It does happen. We've had some crowds outside prisions in Washington State. Sadly, we still execute criminals.

 

I've seen a lot of interviews with the people waiting outside (I've looked into the issue of capital punishment quite a bit). Seems most are usually there for vengance and closure. So yeah, there's that much hatred.

 

Sadly (again), most of the post-interviews (like a few months later) with the people who were in the crowd were very different. They usually report no closure. They don't feel better about it. All that hatred and vengence, which was supposed to make them feel better, "avenged of the murder," really didn't do anything. Many people reported feeling worse- now two families are suffering instead of just one.

 

Personally, I'm against captal punishment for that reason- it just prolongs the hatred. The "happiest" victims I've seen are always those who were able to forgive the murderer. I've only seen a few cases where the vengence actually made someone feel better about their loss. While they may feel justice has been done, they still don't usually feel any better about their loss.

 

Seeing those crowds makes me feel sick to my stomach. It's like an extension of the crime- first, the tragedy of murder (or whatever). Then, the tragedy of all those people and the hatred they feel for the murderer... engenders more problems for the world.

[zadojla]

In the past (I don't know about currently), executions in New York State had to be witnessed by an impartial jury, drawn from the normal jury pool. My brother-in-law was on one of those juries and witnessed an electrocution, and found it to be one of the most horrible experiences of his life.

[bumab]

One of the most disturbing photo's I've seen was of a guy in the middle of getting electrocuted. it was taken by a secret camera on an official observer, so it's grainy and black and white, but it's still powerful.

[Queso]

I know a lot of people that like to go to this website called rotten.com (i suggest you don't go there, just using it for evidence purposes) the website is full of pictures of people who were run over my trains, got devoured by helicopter propellers, shotgun-to-the-head victems...things of that matter.

people LIKE looking at that stuff. my sister, even!

i can't bear to look at that stuff, it's horrible and this just further proves that people like that kind of stuff.

[Fishteacher73]

It has also be shown that crime rates usually increase directly following an execution.

[Torminious]

Personally, I feel that capitol punishment is more about security than closure. We are faced with few options conserning career (un-rehabilitatable) criminals. We can turn them loose to commit more crimes, creating more victims. We can put them in prison, where they are kept comfortable, on the Taxpayers dime. Or, we can execute them.

 

Some argue that this simply punishes the family, I don't think it is that simple. We are in this for the security of Everyone, and a Criminal who disregards the rights of the public he victimizes should forfet any "Rights" of his own. This isn't a game, we are talking about people who are out to hurt (Physically or Financally) anyone within "Reach". These people aren't interested in your faulty concept of Fair, and Right, they are only interested in seeing their own goals fufilled, regardless the detriment to those around them.

 

We are not helping the society which we (barely) maintain with these concepts of Moral equivalency. If we continue to justify criminals dis-respect of the law through failing to uphold those laws which were put in place to protect the law abiding citizens of our land, then we only undermine the foundation upon which we built our country. All people are not equal, but they are equally responsible under the law.

 

Now, do I think that we should hang every child who steals a candy bar? Of course not. However, once a Murderer has been convicted, I do not think that there is any justification for keeping them alive. They have shown themselves to be unable to participate in our society within the guidelines that we ALL are expected to conduct ourselves (most of which I think are more or less within tolerable levels) and have already disregarded those guidelines, resulting in the death of someone who (for the purposes of my hypothetical scenario) was able to live up to the resposibility. To allow someone to continue after such a betrayal of their neighbors is an insult to us all. Equally so the position that we should all be made responsible for their continued prosperous existence, (for how else could you define having ones home, and meals provided for them, as well as having any family left on the outside subsidized by the taxpayers).

 

Showing "Compation" for their situation only fosters the opinion that if you feel justified, you should go ahead and break the law. People today seem to be compelled to expect that if they feel that it is worth breaking the rules for, then it should be allowed to slide. Rather than the more appropriate, I think, perspective that if it's worth breaking the rules for, it's worth facing the consequences for as well. We should be raising our kids to be aware of the responsibilities they are growing into, not providing excuses for delinquent behavior.

 

I think that one can draw a direct connection from our failing correctional system to our legal position regarding criminals "Rights". If you provide people who have no respect for the law protection from it, they will have no reason to fear that law. Or, as H. Beam Piper wrote: "Suffer a thief to live, and you only encourage the breed."

Understand, please, that I do not advocate the methods by which we currently railroad some victims of the system, but I don't think that those who have been rightfully removed from our midst should be comforted on the vague possibility that they were innocent. This should be addressed in a re-evaluation of how they are convicted, not what happens once they have been. We should have enough faith in our judicial system to punish those it shows to be guilty, or we should endeavor to alter that system so we can be.

Sorry for the rant, I'm running a little short on time, so I gotta leave this a little unfinished, but I hope that it's not to rambling...

 

Ser Torm

[kaelcarp]

I can see how capital punishment works well in theory, but in practice, it really doesn't seem to work very well at all. There are two main things that stop it. For one, there is the cost. It costs significantly more to kill someone than to feed and clothe them for the rest of their lives. This is due to the appeals process, which is necessary to make sure the person being executed should really be executed.

 

And then, there is the poor degree of evidence - and high bias level - that often gets people sent to death row. A black man is several times more likely to receive a death sentence for the same crime with the same degree of evidence as a white man. That's sad. I have a friend who is a lawyer and wrote a paper about it, and he told me it was unbelievable some of the thin evidence that resulted in death sentences. He had been in favor of the death penalty until writing his paper.

 

If these two things can be done away with, there will be a much better argument for the use of the death penalty. As it is, it is not handed out fairly, it has no deterrence value, and it serves no purpose other than the satiation of a thirst for revenge.

[sanctus]

Welcome to the forum Torminious.

 

It seems to me that ,in resuming to a minimum what you said, that you are saying "we can trust 100% in our juridical system therefore death penalty is right".

The problem is I don't trust in the juridical system, for reason like the ones kaelcarp pointed out, but also because laws always have to be re-adapted as time changes and the changes never are quick enough.

A part from that I just don't believe that a juridical system can be impartial, the system is composed of persons and every person isn't only objective, but also subjective (react on their feelings). So my mistrust in the juridical system really comes from the people composing it (not important who they are, only the fact that they are humans).An example if a supposed serial killer is in court for judgement and there are many "almost proofs" that he committed those murders (fingerprints and so on but still possible that he wasn't the one); now imagine his murders were very atroce. Now if there only is a small hint that maybe he wasn't it, do you really think somebody wants to follow it?

[infamous]

Fishteacher wrote in another thread:

 

 

 

My quastion does this really happen? I mean they don't even see it if I understood right.

 

Assuming that it really happens what is the reason that pushes people to go and watch? I can imagine that some do it for hatred and the satisfaction of their vengeance feelings, but are there so many people full of hatred?

Yes sanctus; You are right about the reasons for this behavior but frankly I'm offended when humanity finds the need to satisfy itself by being involved in such acts. There is nothing to be gained from witnessing the death of another human being. People that desire this spectacle must be lacking something within their character.

[Torminious]

It seems to me that ,in resuming to a minimum what you said, that you are saying "we can trust 100% in our juridical system therefore death penalty is right".

 

This is actually not my intent. What I mean to suggest is that we should be working towards a judicial system which we can trust 100% of the time, instead of treating it as good enough, and trying to deal with the problems that crop up later, as a result of those faults.

 

It seems to me that we look at many issues a bit backward, and thereby fail to improve the situation by coping with the consequences of, rather than attempting to find and correct the root failures which, in this case, places us in the uncomfortable position of punishing the innocent.

 

If we look at the system, and choose to treat anyone as though they were convicted wrongly, then "to be fair" we have to treat all felons as though they are innocent, seeing as if you suspect the system itself, then all products of that system are suspect. No matter how well you prove some things there's usually some-body (often me) saying "well, not necessarily...". There is allways a sceptic in the room, ya' know?

 

If we aren't comfortable with the process of convicting felons, that is not an issue to be addressed in the sentencing. That, simply put, is my position on Capitol Punisment, and all other methods within corrections. We should be judging our punishments on the merits of why we are dealing them out, not to whom, or under what circumstances their conviction was obtained.

 

Time constraints again.. sorry I'll try back later..

[Fishteacher73]

As an ardent opponent of the death penalty I must disagree with your conclusions Torminious. There is an entire thread debating this and in the thread I feel I have debunked just about any justification for the use of capital punishment in both the current legal world (As increadibly biased system) to what the realities of capital punishment are interms of deterrence and cost.

http://www.hypography.com/scienceforums/showthread.php?t=1330

 

It is time for the US to join the rest of the civilized word...Hell, here in TX they thinks its ok to execute childern and retarded people...Good thing we're ighting that war on terror and the "Axis of Evil" (Which include the only other countries in the world that allow the legal execution of of children).

[Queso]

fishteacher-

isn't it legal in texas to kill your wife if you catch her cheating on you?

something i heard...

[Fishteacher73]

It's just about legal to kill anyone as long as they are not white or male in TX. (Even at that its ok if you have enough money). BUT....That being said TX is #1 state in executions, Harris county (Houston) actually has more people sentanced to CP than most states (I think itself ranks about 15th if you compared it to the other 50 states). Oh, yea...he had a Gov. you may of heard of that actually laughed at a woman that was to be executed.