Holy Days or just holidays???

[IrishEyes]

Tormod and I were discussing Easter, and the upcoming holiday. In Norway, they get some time off for Easter. However, they are not particularly religious. I was commenting that in the States, the only religious Holy Day that coincides with a federal holiday is Christmas, and we're supposed to be a "Christian nation".

My question is why so many people are willing to take advantage of Holy Days, reap the benefits of the free day off, yet they eschew any type of religious leanings. Why is there such a great number of people that will go out and buy baskets and color eggs, yet not show up in church? Why do people put up Christmas trees, and talk about 'the reason for the season', but not acknowledge that "CHRISTmas" is the celebration of the birth of Jesus, regardless of when that actual date may be?

And why do European countries place an emphasis on religious holidays, while America does not?

Also, please know that I understand that colored eggs and baskets of candy have nothing to do with Christianity, in much the same way that a Yule tree has nothing to do with Christmas. Yes, I know they were pagan festivals. And I'd like to get into why they were adopted by 'the Church'. But if that's too much, just tell me why you'll call your mom on Sunday and say "Happy Easter", even if you don't believe in God. And why your wife sends out all of those CHRISTmas cards every year, even though you may be an atheist.

Thanks in advance for your responses...

[pgrmdave]

I think it is because it gives us a reason to be with family, and be happy. Even before I was religious, I loved Christmas. I would get up early, and wait for my parents to drink their coffee before me and my two siblings would run to the tree and open our presents. After the presents were opened, we'd just have fun as a family for a while, play a board game, watch a movie, then later in the day, we would go to my grandparent's house, along with the rest of my father's side of the family, and have a big holiday dinner, and afterwards we would sit around the table and talk, or play Trivial Pursuit (a trivia board game, for those of you who are unfamiliar). While it may be meant to be a celebration of Christ, it can be celebrated for family. In this way, it is more like a date each year for family to get togeather, that is always conveiniant because it is a nationaly holiday.

[Queso]

Different states are more religious than others too, i've noticed. I grew up in california, not overly religious since it was so diverse...but now i'm living in florida and tomorrow is good friday. I have the day off of school for the first day in my life. I don't even know what good friday is...

[IrishEyes]

Orb,

That sounds like when I started school in Las Vegas and we got off for Halloween. I had a hard time understanding why we had to go to school when I moved to California. Of course, it was never explained, while living in Vegas, that we were celebrating Nevada State Admissions Day, instead of Halloween... :)

 

If you want to know about Good Friday... it's honored in most Christian religions as the day that Christ was crucified. It's supposed to be a reminder of what He did for us when He died. However, many Christians forget what it's about, and many others don't even really know. I think, in Catholicism, it's one of the holier days.

 

It's true that many states are different when it comes to Holy/holi-days. In New Orleans, Mardi Gras/Ash Wednesday has become bigger than any other celebration. But even there, the Holy Days are set apart and observed by most everyone, if only for their party value. Here, in Virginia, Good Friday is not a holiday, but nobody would even think twice if you wanted the day off to attend church services. And the school's will be letting out early tomorrow. However, that has as much to do with the beginning of Spring Break as it does it being Good Friday...

[Biochemist]

If you want to know about Good Friday...

Kind of you to explain Good Friday, IE.

 

This is a really interesting question. I certainly agree with pgrmdave's point that many families have built their family traditions on a calendar that has Christian roots, so the value of the holidays is often due to the rich family history.

 

But there some other rather mystic elements here as well. I don't use "mystic" to mean anything deeply spiritual, but merely mysterious, and potentially relating to spirituality.

 

I know a number of folks who do not believe the core Christian message (i.e., that Christ rose and it meant something) yet still attend church reguarly. By regularly, I mean that they are unlikely to miss church more than once or twice a year if they are in town.

 

The justification for this behavior is variable (e.g., church is social, this is good for our kids, this is our tradition, the pastor/priest is a moral leader, etc) but I, frankly, have a hard time making it make sense.

 

Biblically (if you will put of with this for a moment), God often behaves as a clever guy. He often uses odd circumstances and/or experiences to pull people toward Him. It has been argued that God uses this apparent intrinsic drive for community to reach folks. If God is, then He certainly is clever. This would, at least, be internally consistent.

 

 

Oh, and happy Good Friday and Easter everyone.

[IrishEyes]

Biochemist,

There is much in your post that is interesting to me.

 

I also agree with Dave, that families have turned the Holy Days into holidays, adding to the traditions, and changing the celebrations from religious to more familial. While I know that my family is currently going through some changes, back to a more traditional celebrational of various Holy Days, instead of the more common holidays, most families seem to have lost the original intent of the days altogether.

 

We still sort of celebrate Easter, though we are slowly moving to celebrating Passover instead, and referring to Easter as Resurrection Sunday. We don't dress up or go door-to-door on Halloween. We're in intense discussions over the tree at Christmas. I've found that so many of the traditions, pagan origin and all, have so little to do with the Christian celebrations, yet they are so tied into traditions that it's hard to break from them. But that doesn't mean I'm willing to go quietly down the road to accepting them.

 

Another thing that you mentioned, " I know a number of folks who do not believe the core Christian message (i.e., that Christ rose and it meant something) yet still attend church reguarly. By regularly, I mean that they are unlikely to miss church more than once or twice a year if they are in town. " actually has me quite intrigued as well. I've discussed this once or twice here, but I'm not sure that it's ever received it's very own thread. With that in mind, I'm going to start one, as I feel it's something that should be explored.

 

Again, thanks for your comments, and I look forward to hearing what more of you have to say on this topic.

[Fishteacher73]

I can pretty much count the number of time I have gone to church...This includes funerals, weddinges, etc. (about 12 really). Yet my family always has celibrated Christmas. It is celebrated as a time for family to get together and be thankful for eachother, plus exchange some items and have fun. My parents were divorced and both remarried. My step-father had two kids from his prvious marriage. We celebrated christmas "around" the 25, butit really fell when everyone decided we could all get together, perhaps the 19th, maybe the 28th. it was a time of family and pretty much good times. There was no religious connection to it other than a few of the traditional tidings (that were pretty much pagan, xmas tree, etc.).

 

Many people just look at these days as a reason to spend or get stuff. Thats just plain dumb in my book. Whether you have the spiritual meaning or just the acknlowedgement of family, it is the unity that is important on these days.

[bumab]

We still sort of celebrate Easter, though we are slowly moving to celebrating Passover instead, and referring to Easter as Resurrection Sunday. We don't dress up or go door-to-door on Halloween. We're in intense discussions over the tree at Christmas. I've found that so many of the traditions, pagan origin and all, have so little to do with the Christian celebrations, yet they are so tied into traditions that it's hard to break from them. But that doesn't mean I'm willing to go quietly down the road to accepting them.

 

I understand your concern- I've also given some serious thought to the traditions we have around our former Holy Days, turned holidays. Not so much for the pagan roots, but more because they tend to support the consumerist mentality, materialism, and generally disgusting hold that "stuff" has over our lives. The consumerist mentality is killing religion... but that's another line of thought :)

 

Anyway, I thought about that, and came to this conclusion: While those traditions may have dubious beginnings, and even origional motivations, now they are a source of family love and happiness. My parents get great joy out of giving us an ornament every year (even though I'm out and married!). They love to set up lights on the outside of their house. The traditions of Christmas bring joy into their lives just as much as the meaning of Christmas (the religious meaning, for them). What's more Christ-like then that? And isn't that the point- being Christ-like? I thought that was the objective of the Christian religion. :)

[IrishEyes]

The traditions of Christmas bring joy into their lives just as much as the meaning of Christmas (the religious meaning, for them). What's more Christ-like then that? And isn't that the point- being Christ-like? I thought that was the objective of the Christian religion.

Well, we ought to start a different thread to explore that thought at least, huh? I'm not entirely sure that the objective of the Christian religion is to bring joy to people. I was under the impression that the objective was to lead people to Christ. And I'm struggling with the tradtions and current trend of celbrating because I don't think that coloring eggs and filling baskets full of candy has anything to do with Christ, nor does it show others how to be Christ-like. Seeing my kids' chocolate covered faces before church on Easter morning really does not add to the Christ-like-ness of the day.

 

I understand your meaning of the traditions bringing joy, but I'm still not so sure that it isn't a false sort of manufactured joy, and that a more real joy might not be experienced by eliminating the traditions and adhering strictly to the remembrance of what the day signifies.

 

Granted, my children were not totally thrilled when told that we would not be coloring eggs this year, especially since Grandma will be in town. But we explained to them that while we're not trying to take all of the fun out of their young lives, we think it's more important to concentrate on what the day is supposed to be about, apart from the candy and eggs. It was not a fun conversation, but they accepted it much easier than we made the decision, actually. I think I don't give them quite enough credit sometimes...

[Biochemist]

Gracious. This thread is getting heavy quickly-

I'm not entirely sure that the objective of the Christian religion is to bring joy to people. I was under the impression that the objective was to lead people to Christ.

Actually, Christians have lots of responsibilities, and one of those (among many) is to point others toward Christ. I think that the actual objective, however, is to glorfy Him (and that could take a thread or two to decode). Otherwise, we are just trying to build a perpetual motion machine. It actually isn't all about us. It is all about Him.

And I'm struggling with the tradtions and current trend of celbrating because I don't think that coloring eggs and filling baskets full of candy has anything to do with Christ, nor does it show others how to be Christ-like. Seeing my kids' chocolate covered faces before church on Easter morning really does not add to the Christ-like-ness of the day.

Personally, I like coloring Easter eggs, and decorating my Christmas tree. I don't think any tradition that is social in nature (Roat beef and gravy, my world-class cheesecake, christmas cookies!!!!) need be discarded unless it is an actual detractor from the meaning of the season. I have never thought that Christmas decorations were a detraction. I DO think that materialism is a detraction, and I have been careful to get my kids less and less each year. My older kids (18 and 21) each got a book this year. They don't view Christmas as a gift exchange. It is a time to get together. And eat cheescake.

 

IE- One value of the approach you are taking is that it does realign folks back on the core message. That is a perfectly reasonable technique. Clearly there is nothing intrinsically evil in coloring easter eggs, any more than eating sommores at a campfile is an evil tradition. They are just fun things for young folks. But removing things that youngs folks take for granted can be very instructive at times.

I understand your meaning of the traditions bringing joy, but I'm still not so sure that it isn't a false sort of manufactured joy, and that a more real joy might not be experienced by eliminating the traditions and adhering strictly to the remembrance of what the day signifies.

Truly a worthwhile objective.

[bumab]

And I'm struggling with the tradtions and current trend of celbrating because I don't think that coloring eggs and filling baskets full of candy has anything to do with Christ, nor does it show others how to be Christ-like. Seeing my kids' chocolate covered faces before church on Easter morning really does not add to the Christ-like-ness of the day.

 

I think biochemists response to your other points was about what I would say as well, and well worded to boot, so I won't repeat it.

 

But I would like to say that, not being a parent myself yet, I can only imagine the difficulty of getting a kid to see past the materialistic overtones of most of our holidays. It's sad to think that good goal is getting more and more difficult every year as the consumerism of our society gets more and more obtrusive in our lives. I wish you the best in getting your kids to see the reason behind the celebration, Irish! An egg or a tree is a very small thing to sacrafice in getting your kids to come out right, I definatly agree with you there! :) Good luck!

[kaelcarp]

America hasn't always been the "Christian Nation" people are trying to make it now. It started off as a much more secular nation than any of the European countries. A lot of the ties probably aren't as strong because of that, and because the US basically hasn't had them as strongly rooted in its traditions.

 

The European countries had some of those holidays from back in the days when Christianity literally ran the countries. There hasn't been too much of a call to get rid of them, since people like to celebrate.

 

Of course, no one liked to celebrate like the Romans. Something like 1/3 of the calendar days were holidays at one point in ancient Rome.

[Biochemist]

America hasn't always been the "Christian Nation" people are trying to make it now. It started off as a much more secular nation than any of the European countries.

This is an interesting debate point. It is undeniably true that Europe (at the time of the American revolution) was much more Catholic/Anglican that America, and America was more Protestant. I don't think that America was more secular. A significant fraction of the founding fathers were actually pastors.

 

Those founding fathers did, however, go to great lengths to emphasize the establishment clause. That made America different, but I don't think it made us more secular.

 

As a perrenial source or irritation to me, there was never any attempt on the part of the founding fathers to "separate church and state". Their intent was to avoid the state establishing a religion, as many states in history, including England, once had done. The founding fathers apparently thought that religious influence on the state was critically important.

[C1ay]

For me it's basically for the same reasons I participate in church activities with my family, whatever is important to them. If my catholic wife wants to color eggs for the kids, I color eggs for the kids. If she wants a Christmas tree, she gets a Christmas tree. Participation in these Christian holidays doesn't hurt or both me in any way but they're important to her and that's important to me. I think Dr. Phil's phrase is "It ain't about you". He's right, it's not about me, it's about them.

 

BTW, it's Good Friday here and I am working today but many of the companies I do business with are closed today. I could probably work on Christmas to but I'm fairly certain I would find even fewer people to do business with, so why shouldn't I take Christmas off?

[Biochemist]

I think Dr. Phil's phrase is "It ain't about you". He's right, it's not about me, it's about them....

Although I am the last one to disagree with Dr Phil, there are a bunch of folks that would argue that, in this particular context, is isn't about "them" either. It's about Him.

[kaelcarp]

This is an interesting debate point. It is undeniably true that Europe (at the time of the American revolution) was much more Catholic/Anglican that America, and America was more Protestant. I don't think that America was more secular. A significant fraction of the founding fathers were actually pastors.

 

Those founding fathers did, however, go to great lengths to emphasize the establishment clause. That made America different, but I don't think it made us more secular.

The people may not have been, but the structure of the country and government were certainly much more secular than other countries. Consider that all those countries had official state religions at the time. It was a novel idea to have a country with no state religion and a thoroughly secular government.

 

As a perrenial source or irritation to me, there was never any attempt on the part of the founding fathers to "separate church and state". Their intent was to avoid the state establishing a religion, as many states in history, including England, once had done. The founding fathers apparently thought that religious influence on the state was critically important.

It's fairly clear from various sources that most of the founding fathers were in favor of more than just not having a state religion. They wanted no involvement of the government in religion at all. Now, you could say that not allowing displays of any religious affinity at all is stretching that, but they certainly didn't want to see religion and government together. As James Madison said, "...religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

[Biochemist]

It's fairly clear from various sources that most of the founding fathers were in favor of more than just not having a state religion. They wanted no involvement of the government in religion at all. Now, you could say that not allowing displays of any religious affinity at all is stretching that, but they certainly didn't want to see religion and government together. As James Madison said, "...religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

I think this is a valid opinion, but I don't think this is all that clear. The founding fathers were not homogeneous, and most thought that the moral leadership inherent in religion was a critical component of successful government by the people.

 

Some (Washington, Jefferson) thought that the import of moral direction from religion was mandatory. Jefferson was certainly not a Christian, but still believed that the roots of morality are in religion. Ergo, even though they did not want any specific religion mandated by the government, they thought that the influence of the religion of the people on the government (as opposed to the religion of the government on the people) was mandatory .