Unbelievers at church? GASP!!

[IrishEyes]

I know a number of folks who do not believe the core Christian message (i.e., that Christ rose and it meant something) yet still attend church reguarly. By regularly, I mean that they are unlikely to miss church more than once or twice a year if they are in town.

 

A few of you have mentioned that you really have no basic belief in the core tenets of Christianity, or other religions, yet you attend some sort of religious service on a fairly regular basis.

 

WHY???

 

Why do you feel it is important to your family, or your friends, to spend time on Sunday mornings sitting through a sermon based on a book that you have no belief is true? Why waste your time? Why pretend to believe?

 

Is it that the country in which you live is so against people without faith, or that you think it's important to raise your children in some sort of religion, or what? This is not meant as a slam on anyone, I am truly interested. I can't imagine sitting through any sort of service on a regular basis that taught things that I believed were incorrect. Nor would I subject my children to teachings that I thought were false. I'm not trying to say you are bad parents or anything - nothing could be farther from the truth, as I know that many of you are incredible people that obviously adore your children. I just want to know why you think it's important to raise your children with a foundation in the church if you don't follow those ideas yourself.

 

Also, I'd like to get others opinions on this, not just parents, not just non-believers, but everyone. If so many people, as Biochemist suggests, go to church without actually believing what they are being taught there, then why do they go? What makes church attendance good for the family, or important to the raising of children? Can't kids get the same sort of moral education without subjecting them to a set of beliefs that the parents do not hold? It's like Tormod explaining that his kids will learn Bible verses and hymns in school, but he's an atheist. While I am a Christian, and I think it's very important to raise my children in a church environment, I can't understand doing that if I didn't really believe in God. Please explain.

[Fishteacher73]

I have some theories, but really do not know, I simply have never really gone to church..

[IrishEyes]

I have some theories...

Well - share them!

Duh... :)

Theories are exactly what I want to hear.

I'd also like to know how you've survived in Texas so long with only attending church 12 times. Is that even legal there? :)

[C1ay]

If I must be labeled then agnostic is probably close. I claim no belief in God or any deity. OTOH, I do not claim that there is no God because I cannot prove it. Because of that I accept that I could be wrong but I don't believe anyone could prove that there is a God either.

 

What is important to me is that my children find their own beliefs for their own reasons. My kids know exactly how I feel but they also know how their friends and their peers feel. If their friends go to church and tell them about something they did there that they want to experience for themselves, then I take them to church. I fill a need that's important to them, not me.

 

At one time my son wanted to be a cub scout because several of his friends were scouts. As soon as I took him to sign up though, they hit me up to be a leader because they are starving for adult volunteers. I signed up with him and spent a few years helping the pack with their leadership needs. I never revealed my beliefs to the organization though because they never asked (they'd have a cow if the knew). I also did not share them with the boys of the pack as I believe they should all find their own beliefs for their own reasons, not my belief just because I was their leader. I did not accept the position to pass on my belief to them, I accepted it to help an organization that tries to provide a positive activity for these boys. I filled a need that was important to them, not me.

 

My wife was raised as a devout catholic and it was very important to her to be married in the catholic church. The church required some classes though to make sure our marriage would last because of how the catholic church feels about divorce. I went to their classes and my wife got her wish. Again, I filled a need that was important to her, not me.

 

What's important to me is doing what I can to make their lives better. If that involves me helping them with their beliefs then so be it.

[infamous]

Greetings Irish; I'm going on 63 years of age at present but, as a young man in my 20's and fresh out of the Army I really had no interest in going to church. At this tender age you could have defined my spiritual condition as a agnostic. I had just spent 2 1/2 years in Germany and had returned with a bride from this beautiful country and she was pregnant. After my daughter was born, I and my wife "Helga" decided that it would be advisable for us to attend church. This was agreed upon because we both felt, even though neither one of us was spiritual at that time, because we thought it best for our daughter. If you ask me why we came to that decision, I believe it was because we both had observed the benefit it seemed to have upon young peoples character and state of happyness. This most likely comes from the family like enviornment that people recieve from affiliation with church like groups. I'm really very glad that we made this decision because my daughter is much the better for it. When you compare the ends that many of her class mates came to, I've become very proud of her and the way she is handling her own family and life. Sence those many years ago, I've become a Christain, and my life and every thing about it have turned completely around. I'm truly at peace and happy with my relationship with my creator. God bless Irish.

[TINNY]

I'm pretty sure many here claim that anything religious is harmful. Thus, it contradicts an atheist to take someone to church, or apply any religion to their lives. You can't even be selective, coz the very core is already wrong. So I agree with Irish.

[UncleAl]

If you need a very large number of stone cold atheists in a hurry, visit the Vatican City. Drug pushers are not addicts, wine merchants are not alcoholics, and priests in management don't believe in any sort of god other than money. Dominus et magister noster Iesus Christus dicendo "Poenitentiam agite adpropinquavit enim regnum caelorum" omnem vitam fidelium penitentiam esse voluit. Ha Ha Ha! Pay the plate, sucker.

 

Do you really believe that thousands of revealed homosexual pederasts in the Catholic Church alone are not standard operating procedure? Do you really believe that the omniscient omnipotent Creator of the Unviverse comes up short of pocket change every Sunday morning? Do you really believe that the halfing faggot god-on-a-stick - three! three! three gods in one! - can compete with 360 million (36 crores of) Hindu gods?

 

http://members.aol.com/bbu84/biblicalstupidity/quotes.htm

 

The Wicked Witch of the West died for Uncle Al's sins.

[Biochemist]

Why do you feel it is important to your family, or your friends, to spend time on Sunday mornings sitting through a sermon based on a book that you have no belief is true? Why waste your time? Why pretend to believe?

IE- I am honored that you took one of my posts and started a thread- Thanks.

 

I have had many conversations with folks about this over the years. I would like to insert that, like c1ay above, many of the folks who attend church do not pretend to believe. Many openly admit that they do not believe and attend anyway.

 

In fact there are clergy that admit they don't believe, and remain clergy. I have heard from both Catholic and Episcopalian clergy in this camp.

 

These folks are not homogeneous. I always enjoy talking with them, because many are really open to credible debate on issues of spiritual significance.

 

I mentioned in some other thread that I think Chirstianity is readily defensible on a scientific, philosophical and a historical basis. It is not simple, but is is defensible.

 

I should mention that when I posted this, Telemad reponded that he read my post and spat milk through his nose.

 

I do chuckle when I get these kinds of responses, although I am a little saddened at the same time. I was a little sad to read UncleAl's post as well. It is undeniably true that some folks with position in the church (any church) have done things that seem pretty awful. However, the only standards we have for "awful" are established by external moral guidance in places like the Bible. If someone does not hold to some theistic standard, then no behavior is unacceptable: Who is there to establish right from wrong?

 

To an atheist, logically, no behavior is out of bounds. But I have never met an atheist that feels that way. Funny.

[zadojla]

Why do you feel it is important to your family, or your friends, to spend time on Sunday mornings sitting through a sermon based on a book that you have no belief is true? Why waste your time? Why pretend to believe?

I don't pretend to believe, I just don't rub other people's noses in the fact that I do not. I am on their turf, after all.

I just want to know why you think it's important to raise your children with a foundation in the church if you don't follow those ideas yourself.

I don't, but my wife does.

If so many people, as Biochemist suggests, go to church without actually believing what they are being taught there, then why do they go? What makes church attendance good for the family, or important to the raising of children? Can't kids get the same sort of moral education without subjecting them to a set of beliefs that the parents do not hold?

You have actually touched on something that makes me crazy. It is very common for people to start attending church when they have children, go regularly until the children are confirmed, and then stop cold. What are they thinking? I don't know. I got into a quite serious argument with someone who couldn't understand why I thought he was a hypocrite, when he spoke proudly of it.

When I got married, my wife (Presbyterian) had not attended church regularly in years, but had been brought up attending regularly. We would go occasionally for special services like Easter or Christmas at her request. When my daughter was five, she announced that she would like to be baptised. SInce this was important to my wife, we arranged it and my wife also joined the church. I am NOT a member; I would have to affirm that I believe things I do not in order to become one. (I want to point out here that we commonly do things together as a family, down to going to the supermarket.)

I can certainly teach my daughter morals without church. That is how I learned. I very rarely went to church when I was young. My father would only go to one church, and my mother refused to go there because the people had been unkind to her when they were married, so we never went. My daughter's morals were probably well set before she was baptised, on her sixth birthday. One reason why I attanded was I did not want to confuse her or send a mixed message when she was young. I think it is important for parents to be in agreement on important issues. It didn't take her long to question whether I believed, and I told her the truth.

As for church itself, there are many admirable people there (and many not). I enjoy some of the activities, like playing in the handbell choir. I confess to sometimes having had enough, like the mission dinner where I singlehandedly washed all the dishes for 160 people to avoid sitting through the presentation. And yes, it is widely known that I am not a believer, but no one is mean about it.

[bumab]

Ouch, Uncle Al. That is a sad thing to write.

 

The mixture of atheists here- from graciously accepting of other people's beliefs to virulent and unfounded attacks- mirrors the mixture of folk you find in a church. You find those that are uncompromising in their condemnation of others beliefs, you find those that question their own faith constantly.

 

I find folk like zadolija refreshing- thank you for being a good parent. Not that attending church makes you a good parent, but attending to what you feel your daughters best intrests are does. I've been a part of many small outreach programs, and those that come out of love are the best people to have around, believers or not. When you go, go with an open mind and respect for what people there do and believe (it seems you do!). I pray that the church members approach you with the same respect- God knows we need good parental role models!

 

Anyway, as a Christian, I'd like to say I admire your decision. My father in law is in the same position, but chooses to not attend. It has caused strife with my wife, and real concern...

[IDMclean]

I am what i call a Sensate. I believe only in what I can see, touch, smell, taste, or hear.

I do derive my morals and sense of balance from Religous, and philosophical basis.

I won't call myself an agnostic cause I believe in something grander than myself.

I won't call myself an aetheist cause it bothers the hell out of me.

 

I believe in the Divine universe. the places and stuff we are made up. The sum product of all things. The Alpha and Omega. The divine prinicible: 1+1 = 1 and 1/1 = 1 and 1*1 = 1.

I reject Christianity outright because they say that one can not know god and I think that is wrong. Also because of the exclusion of others from the religion.

 

I believe most of all: That each person defines their own reality, independant of everyone else's reality. That despite the best efforts of everything in the world in the end the decission is made by you.

 

I do not attend any service of any kind. I do not pretend to be something I'm not. I will admit when I think I'm wrong. No belief I hold is so sacred as to not be able to be replaced or dismissed totally in the face of overwhelming evidence.

[pgrmdave]

I am the exact opposite, I believe, but I do not attend any church services. I simply don't enjoy church services, they don't make me feel spiritual, or closer to God. However, my mother started attending a United Methodist Church a few years ago, and became good friends with the pastor there. He has said that about 20% of the congregation are actual Christians, who believe all week long, and the other 80% believe on Sunday, and attend for social purposes, and that there is nothing wrong with that. I think that in many ways, the church exists as a social group apart from a religious group, but, as I am not a part of it, this is only an outsider's observation.

[kaelcarp]

I call myself an atheist, but I specify it as either "weak" or "negative" atheism. That is something commonly called agnostic, but agnosticism is really a lack of a belief in the ability to form true knowledge (about a deity), rather than a lack of belief in a deity. Negative atheism is the assertion that one does not currently possess enough evidence one way or the other regarding whether there is a deity. It is called "negative" because it is a lack of belief. This contrasts with "strong" or "positive" atheism, also called "antitheism", which states a positive belief that there is no deity.

 

I have a 2-year-old son, and when he gets older, I plan to teach him how to view the world with a critical eye and think for himself, how to reason and form opinions. What conclusions he comes to from that will be his own. I would never take him to a church that taught things I specifically disagree with, but I don't mind exposing him to a variety of belief systems.

[Biochemist]

I find folk like zadolija refreshing-

I concur.

[lindagarrette]

I would go to church if discussion were allowed during the "sermon" or if there were a question and answer session following. When I was a child, my parents made me go to "sunday school" and I did, until the teacher told me to stay away because I was confusing the others with my skepticism. Why educated people whould subject their kids to such a one-sided indoctrination is beyond me. The so called teaching method is not legitimate and the material is myths and superstitions disguised as facts. How can a vulnerable child mind sort out the true from the rediculous?

[Biochemist]

I reject Christianity outright because they say that one can not know god and I think that is wrong.

Hmmm. I have to admit I have not heard this one before. Christians are usually attacked because they contend that God is only really understood through Christ.

Also because of the exclusion of others from the religion.

I assume you meant that Christians think other folks are incorrect, not that they exclude people from becing Christian (true?). Although I hear a lot about this Christian "intolerance", the point is a little disingenuous. If Christians actually believe that Christ is who he said he was (i.e. the definition of a Christian) then it would be hypocritical to treat other religions that are contradictory as equivalent.

 

Tolerating other opinions in open discussion is one thing. Agreeing that other opinions are equally valid is another. This is also true in any field of science. A qualified instructor in general chemistry may be succcessful as an instructor by understanding the confusion on the part of the students. He/she is not a good instructor if he lets students retain the opinion that Helium has three protons, because that is "their reality".

 

Christianity actually has a fact basis, although we seemingly seldom talk about it.

[Biochemist]

I simply don't enjoy church services, they don't make me feel spiritual, or closer to God.

I often don't enjoy my church service either. That is not why I go. I go to contribute, not to gain. Overall, I suspect I do gain, however.

I think that in many ways, the church exists as a social group apart from a religious group, but, as I am not a part of it, this is only an outsider's observation.

Some do. But I suspect even in the context you mentioned, one objective of that Methodist pastor is to raise the fraction of consistent Christians to a higher percentage.