Unbelievers at church? GASP!!

[Biochemist]

I would go to church if discussion were allowed during the "sermon" or if there were a question and answer session following. When I was a child, my parents made me go to "sunday school" and I did, until the teacher told me to stay away because I was confusing the others with my skepticism.

Wow. I have to admit that this really struck a chord. It is true that most churches are not "set up" to deal with a Q&A session after a service. Still, this lack of response is an abject failure on the part of the church. Paul (the apostle) lived to deal with objections. Lots of places ARE set up to respond to questions.

 

Personally, I have always appreciated skeptics, but the effort to respond to constructive critique can be distracting, just as it might be in any college course. That is one reason why professors have office hours.

 

The notion of "indoctrination" is, I think, not really applicable. If parents actually believe that the core message is true, then training their children on the elements of the core message is part of being a family, like anything else that a family does together. If, however, the parents insist on not answering their children's questions, that is something else.

[Biochemist]

I have a 2-year-old son, and when he gets older, I plan to teach him how to view the world with a critical eye and think for himself, how to reason and form opinions. What conclusions he comes to from that will be his own. I would never take him to a church that taught things I specifically disagree with, but I don't mind exposing him to a variety of belief systems.

Interesting. How are you going to decide which elements to expose him to? In my expeience, when kids get to be five or six, they start asking a lot of hard questions. It is nice to be able to limit the number of "I don't know" responses.

[C1ay]

I don't pretend to believe, I just don't rub other people's noses in the fact that I do not. I am on their turf, after all.

 

I can second that. I never claim or pretend to believe. I openly share what I believe with anyone that asks or wants to know. If they don't ask, I simply don't tell. It is not my intent to convert anyone to my belief or give a sales pitch on it. Any failure to advertise my belief is not pretending to be of someone else's belief.

 

What bothers me sometimes is the fact that some of them want to rub my nose in the fact that they believe. They want to give me a sales pitch on their belief. The baptists want to judge me for having a beer on Sunday. The Church of Christ wants to judge me for dancing. Who are they to judge me?

 

The one thing I am really intolerant of is intolerance. I support everyone in their beliefs. I am happy for them and I feel religion is a very powerful tool for teaching morals. Why can't those that believe support others in their belief, even if that belief is not the same as their own. Why should any muslim judge any jew just because they are jewish? Why should any Christian do so for the same reason? Why should anyone of faith A claim that the people with faith B are wrong? IMO, religious intolerance has no place in religion.

[Biochemist]

Why should anyone of faith A claim that the people with faith B are wrong? IMO, religious intolerance has no place in religion.

It is both feasible and reasonable to contend others are wrong without being intolerant. This site is often a good example.

[C1ay]

It is both feasible and reasonable to contend others are wrong without being intolerant.

 

Correct. They key is tolerance. I don't particularly mean that there is something wrong with disagreement, only that intolerance is wrong. As an example, I do not believe there is anything wrong with a muslim disagreeing with the jewish faith. I do think that muslims should respect the right of a jew to have that faith though without condemning him or wanting him dead because of it. If I were to believe in God, I would think that he would want me to be tolerant of all of the faiths.

[Biochemist]

....I do think that muslims should respect the right of a jew to have that faith though without condemning him or wanting him dead because of it. If I were to believe in God, I would think that he would want me to be tolerant of all of the faiths.

I suspect you are correct. I think the operative question relates more to how much God expects you to influence those around you toward His point of view. It means you would have to gain some undertanding of it first.

 

Goodness, there is a topic for a new thread.

[motherengine]

i would highly recommend any all black church in the deep south. great fun though some of the more intense sermons might scare the kids. and yes i am serious. white people just don't know how to worship in public.

[infamous]

i would highly recommend any all black church in the deep south. great fun though some of the more intense sermons might scare the kids. and yes i am serious. white people just don't know how to worship in public.

 

I have to agree mother engine; I have attended southern black congregations and they do know how to enjoy their worship.

[Biochemist]

i would highly recommend any all black church in the deep south...white people just don't know how to worship in public.

I have attended a couple of these as well. They do tend toward a colorful worship style. They tend not to be thoughtful in dealing with different points of view. But I did enjoy and appreciate my visits.

[bumab]

I would go to church if discussion were allowed during the "sermon" or if there were a question and answer session following. When I was a child, my parents made me go to "sunday school" and I did, until the teacher told me to stay away because I was confusing the others with my skepticism.

 

It's very sad you had that experience- but unfortantly, I know it happens all the time. Questioning, in my mind, should be encouraged in services. How else do we learn without questions? If you never ask any questions, you usually end up assuming you are completely right. This leads to pride in yourself, which as Milton said, is the greatest of sins.

 

A problem I see most commonly is the packaging of religion as a commodity. You go, and as someone here said, you are given a sales pitch. Churches spend millions on comfy chairs and Jumbotrons, all to keep you content. A local church here recently put cupholders in their chairs, so you could have a latte while listening to the service.

 

I know (or I hope) they did it with the best intentions. But in our society, success of a church is often measured the same way success in other ventures is measured- by your attendance, or the size of your facility, or your modern technology. The problem is when skeptical minded people come in, they are often immediatly turned off by the sensationalism that grips many churchs. You can't blame the church, it's more a society wide thing. If you see that problem (everything is a commodity) in society, you'll also see it in churches.

 

The goal should be to get past that. Suspend your judgement for a moment. Go to church and attempt to see what the people really feel, just once. In my experience, most people at church really just want the best for others. They may be misguided- but who isn't? The point is to look past the product and see the source of the origional inspiration. If you come away still hating the church, well- at least you took an honest look at it, and not a superficial glance at the ugly side. And there is an ugly side- I agree. But look the people in the eyes, and hopefully you'll see there is honest good intentions in their.

 

LG- on a side note- you didn't really get disgusted with that sunday school teacher and choose to leave, right? Pre-existing conditions simply led your body away, right? If things were different at churches, you still wouldn't CHOOSE to go, right? Determinism, right? :)

[Freethinker]

Christianity actually has a fact basis, although we seemingly seldom talk about it.

Hahahahahahahahah !!!!!!!!

 

Oh if I only had the time once more!

[Biochemist]

Hahahahahahahahah !!!!!!!!

 

Oh if I only had the time once more!

Feel free to point to a previous thread.

[Freethinker]

Feel free to point to a previous thread.

Feel free to check out any thread I have been in. As I am 2nd only to Mr T himself in posts, it will be easy.

 

Or ask any longer time members.

 

Irish?

 

But let's make it easy and not require you to go back in the threads. Merely provide one simple factual reply. Should not be too hard for someone I noticed has claimed numerous times to have FACTS to their myth. You want to make empty unsupportable rambling claims as if factual?

Christianity actually has a fact basis

Provide ONE verifyable contemporary eyewitness report which supports the actual existence of the biblical Jesus the Christ. Provide ONE written report from someone that actually lived at the time and in the area, that shows ANY FACTUAL support to biblical Christianity and it's mythical dead man on a stick.

 

(And if you fail in this simple task, are you intellectually honest enough to admit it?)

[Biochemist]

Do me a favor, Freethinkier, if you could. I really can't tell if you are being hostile, facetious, or derisive, but it feels like one of those. I am happy to entertain defending any position I (or others) hold, but I would appreciate the same professional style that you usually maintain when discussing basic science. If you were not being negative, I apologize for my impression.

Provide ONE verifyable contemporary eyewitness report which supports the actual existence of the biblical Jesus the Christ.

I do not think this is a reasonable construct. I suspect you would have a difficult time producing an eyewitness report for the Big Bang or dinosaurs, and yet most of us believe those inferred facts are fundamentally true

Provide ONE written report from someone that actually lived at the time and in the area, that shows ANY FACTUAL support to biblical Christianity and it's mythical dead man on a stick.

As I have mentioned previously, there are over 20,000 documents that are extant from the first century referencing Jesus' historicity. I recognize that some folks (notably lindagarette on this very site) contend that those are all frauds, but that is a minority opinion, even among non-Christian scholars and historians. Among non-Christian texts, I suspect you are well aware that Josephus is the most often quoted non-Christian contemporary of Jesus. I suspect some of his texts were altered by early Christian transcribers, but the weight of evidence, supported by the majority of non-Christian scholars, is that Josephus was real, and that his references to Jesus (although probably embellished) were real as well.

 

If you hold otherwise about the existence of Jesus, you are a minority opinion. You are allowed (in my mind) to still hold to the gas cloud hypothesis for creation of the universe, but you would be a minority opinion in that as well. And for similar reasons.

[C1ay]

As I have mentioned previously, there are overe 20,000 documents that are extant from the first century referencing Jesus' historicity.

 

Historicity as a man or as God, Son Of God, Holy Spirit or something else. I will agree that there was probably a man named Jesus that once lived. I do not believe there is one shred of physical evidence to prove that he was God though. Where is there any evidence to prove he was?

[Queso]

there isn't. that's the point. no need to stall that simple answer with long posts.

[Biochemist]

Historicity as a man or as God, Son Of God, Holy Spirit or something else. I will agree that there was probably a man named Jesus that once lived. I do not believe there is one shred of physical evidence to prove that he was God though. Where is there any evidence to prove he was?

You will have to bear with me for a moment, C1ay. The stepwise discussion overall would be:

 

1) Is theism reasonable? followed (if requested) by

2) What are the thiestic choices? followed by

2) Is Christianity reasonable?

 

In the third phase, we would go through

 

3a) was Christ real?, and

3b) was He special?

 

Freethinker jumped directly to 3a) in this discussion.

 

That is all we are talking about at the moment.