God is the limit

[maddog]

How many gods did the ancient Egyptians have? Wasn't it 100s? I wonder when man invented his first god. Anyone got any ideas?

I think for Egyptians, it matters whether you count all the DemiGods. Like in Greek

mythology. Hercules only had one God for a parent (Zeus), the other (mother) was

human. This was why Hera hated him so. I believe it was the Summerians who have

the earliest writing we know of and yes they had Gods (I've heard of a handful), though

there may be more.

 

Maddog

[emessay]

I am afraid probably God is no longer the limit, my mortality is my limit which were in case that I've not to try hiding my hypocricy.............. :)

[Queso]

i think this thread proves we all have seperate limits.

[TINNY]

There is a possibility that a messenger was sent by God to humans and that was how the concept of God originated.

 

It is a pity that disbelievers portray a distorted view of God according to whatever they deem easy to attack, usually the stereotypical Sunday-Church-Christian-God. It augurs well for their arrogance in being smart and brave to break free of any morality or restriction. Despite their supposedly rigorous objectivity, they do not consider the concepts of God - as propounded by higher level theologians, namely Algazel and Tomas Aquinas - to be argued upon. At this level, it is equally possible to argue philosophically that God exists and that God does not exists.

 

I have posted a few times before of the scientific proof of God's existence. As agreed by monotheistic religions, God is the Absolute Being, having a transcendental existence beyond space and time with absolute characteristics, namely Eternal, Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The nature of EMW as being absolute, and that it is not involved in the flow of time and is not in space is a powerful proof of GOD. Its characteristic of being omnipresent(can be anywhere at the same time because it is not involved in the flow of time) and omnipotent (that interactions of matter involve exchange of photons) is scientifically possible.

[C1ay]

I have posted a few times before of the scientific proof of God's existence.

Please point us to one of those posts. To my knowledge there is no proof that anyone has found other than faith.

[tarak]

___I see no limit to our minds, frailtys and all, therefore no limit to the gods we imagine. I suppose I need to clarify 'our minds' to mean the collective of human minds, as the individual mind (my own comes to mind) is clearly limited.

 

That is why man imagined superman and omnipotent entities.But the fraility is our limit.Fraility of the holistic human spirit which encompasses the human body.How far one can travel in the universe??Aslong as one can fly defying gravity.How many numbers can we imagine???there is a limit there.The fraility altogether is mortality of the holistic human spirit which itself is our most obviuos limit.

[tarak]

There is a possibility that a messenger was sent by God to humans and that was how the concept of God originated.

 

 

 

With great respect to all socio-religious systems and religions and their respective theological foundations,I feel that God can never be described to have a disotorted view or an objective view.It is always based on subjective interpretation involving a lot of emotional faculties of human beings.God has been one of the most important foundations of human existence and will remain so.One thing is baffling here human morality and ethics,which we created for ourselves as selfish oragnisms to improve our fitness.

[tarak]

I think you might has missed the point of my post. I was condering the proposition

earlier made that Man created God and not the other way around.

 

Like geocentric and heliocentric theory----

----- Now similarly I feel that if one believes in scientific discoveries of human spirit and uses them daily and belives in them, then it boils down to the fact. Man created GOD. Not an Amoeba or a camel or a dog.Coming to the morality and ethics view raised in another post I feel that no religion can be absolutely moral or ethical.Still there are things that are above human comprehension.A tsunami or an earhtquake,for example has shown the human predicament vis -a -vis nature (not excluding humanbeing from it.)

[emessay]

How about .....man defined God/gods as Higher Conciousness or man automatically predicted something 'Personalized Alien' beyond all macro cosmos or micro cosmos. He[God] is 'Final Edge Concious Free Will' but He is not the limit. Let's questions these :

 

Have we ever 'conscious' before 10,000 - 100,000 yrs ago ??

 

Do we still keep maintain 'conscious' on Earth in next 10,000 - 100,000 yrs in scale of 13.7 bya ?

 

Who are 'we' ??....What's is purpose of life event for Universe ? Are 'we' only 1% part of 'surviellence conscious camera' in looking universe scale .......conscious 10,000 yrs...........4.5 bya life event..............and 13.7 bya observable universe ???......or now actually 'our consciousness' are in 'His Event Horizont' at distance of 10exp(-100) meter running in tubulin dimer of each our neuron .

[emessay]

So when we pray: 'God with us' is very true of my question. We're not alone in going somewhere........l

[Biochemist]

...One thing is baffling here human morality and ethics,which we created for ourselves as selfish oragnisms to improve our fitness.

...if one believes in scientific discoveries of human spirit and uses them daily and belives in them, then it boils down to the fact. Man created GOD.

These area either hypotheses or opinions, not facts.

[TINNY]

Please point us to one of those posts. To my knowledge there is no proof that anyone has found other than faith.

Here it is again:

Modern physics and cosmology (science of the origin and development of the universe) now provide firm objective evidence of the existence of God, confirm the primary attributes of God, and show how God created the physical existence out of ‘nothingness’. This knowledge comes from a critical analysis of the ‘Big Bang’ theory, Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity, and work being done in quantum physics. The concepts behind this esoteric scientific knowledge can now be presented in such a way as to be understood by any person with a modern education.

 

We now know according to the most widely accepted theories of cosmology that the physical universe we see today was created out of nothingness (meaning – no time, no space, and no matter).

 

We also know that the beginning of the creation of the universe took place by light coming into existence at a singularity (a point with no dimension).

 

We know that the matter of the physical universe was brought into being by photons (little packages of light energy) which, when colliding with each other, formed the virtually infinite number of protons, neutrons and electrons, which in various combinations make up everything in our physical world.

 

In essence we can now accurately say that all the matter of the physical universe, ourselves included, is actually light slowed down.

 

We know that the space which contains our physical universe is expanding. Einstein was so astounded by his discovery that he falsified his data to show a universe that was not expanding, because he well understood that an expanding universe implies there was somewhere in the distant past a moment of creation for the universe.

 

Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (which he actually called his Absolutism Theorem because he realized he had found the one thing in a relative universe that was absolute) is about the special qualities of light.

 

The Special Theory of Relativity allows us our first objective glimpse into that which exists beyond the material world.

 

We could have found anything once we got our first glimpse beyond the material world, but what we did find is indeed remarkable. We find Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity showing us that the non-material existence beyond the physical world consists only of absolutes, and some of those absolutes are remarkably similar to what everyone’s religion has considered to be among the primary attributes of God.

 

Example One: As the speed of light (300,000km per second) is approached then time slows, and at the speed of light time does not pass. This means for a photon of light which travels at exactly the speed of light, time does not pass. Therefore the photon is outside of time, and ETERNAL.

 

Example Two: Since no time passes for a photon of light, and that photon can be observed at different places in space, therefore that photon of light is simultaneously in those different places (and many other places) at the same time, and therefore OMNIPRESENT.

 

Example Three: Since every bit of matter in the physical universe is created by the energy of light, and that light energy constantly sustains and directs the activity of every bit on matter in the physical existence, then there is no power other than the power of light, light energy is all the power that exists, and therefore OMNIPOTENT.

 

Example Four: Since all knowledge that exists, that ever existed, or will exist, is stored by light energy and transmitted through light energy then there is no knowledge beyond that intrinsic to light, and therefore OMNISCIENT.

 

Furthermore, light does not actually exist within the physical existence although we can somehow perceive it. As you approach the speed of light one of the three dimensions (length, height, and width), the dimension in line with the direction of motion, becomes progressively less, and at the speed of light that dimension becomes zero. To determine volume we multiply height times width times length, but if any one of those three dimensions is zero then the volume is zero, and that thing therefore does not exist in the material universe. Light occupies no volume of space and therefore has no existence in the physical universe.

 

And, while everything in the physical universe has some mass greater than zero, which is a necessary characteristic for existence in the material world, light has no mass at all. As you approach the speed of light mass increases, at the speed of light mass is infinite. Regardless of how tiny the amount of mass you begin with, that mass rises to infinity at the speed of light. Since photons travel at the speed of light and do not reach infinite mass it means that they had zero mass to begin with, and a light therefore does not actually exist in the material world.

 

In the physical existence everything is relative, the absolute existence or non-existence of any quality is not and can not be expressed, everything exists between those two extremes of the continuum from absolute expression to absolute non-expression. We find, though, that beyond the material existence all qualities either exist in an infinite state or have no existence at all, there is nothing in between.

[C1ay]

We now know according to the most widely accepted theories of cosmology that the physical universe we see today was created out of nothingness (meaning – no time, no space, and no matter).

 

We also know that the beginning of the creation of the universe took place by light coming into existence at a singularity (a point with no dimension).

 

 

No we don't. The big bang is a leading theory but it is far from being proven as the beginning. How could anyone prove that there was nothing before the big bang, if there even was a big bang. This is a theory, nothing more.

 

We know that the matter of the physical universe was brought into being by photons (little packages of light energy) which, when colliding with each other, formed the virtually infinite number of protons, neutrons and electrons, which in various combinations make up everything in our physical world.

 

In essence we can now accurately say that all the matter of the physical universe, ourselves included, is actually light slowed down.

 

No again. Matter and energy were not created from photons.

 

We know that the space which contains our physical universe is expanding. Einstein was so astounded by his discovery that he falsified his data to show a universe that was not expanding, because he well understood that an expanding universe implies there was somewhere in the distant past a moment of creation for the universe.

 

It may have implied a beginning from a singularity but even if it did it would not mean there is a God.

 

Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity (which he actually called his Absolutism Theorem because he realized he had found the one thing in a relative universe that was absolute) is about the special qualities of light.

 

The Special Theory of Relativity allows us our first objective glimpse into that which exists beyond the material world.

 

We could have found anything once we got our first glimpse beyond the material world, but what we did find is indeed remarkable. We find Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity showing us that the non-material existence beyond the physical world consists only of absolutes, and some of those absolutes are remarkably similar to what everyone’s religion has considered to be among the primary attributes of God.

 

Example One: As the speed of light (300,000km per second) is approached then time slows, and at the speed of light time does not pass. This means for a photon of light which travels at exactly the speed of light, time does not pass. Therefore the photon is outside of time, and ETERNAL.

 

Example Two: Since no time passes for a photon of light, and that photon can be observed at different places in space, therefore that photon of light is simultaneously in those different places (and many other places) at the same time, and therefore OMNIPRESENT.

 

Example Three: Since every bit of matter in the physical universe is created by the energy of light, and that light energy constantly sustains and directs the activity of every bit on matter in the physical existence, then there is no power other than the power of light, light energy is all the power that exists, and therefore OMNIPOTENT.

 

Example Four: Since all knowledge that exists, that ever existed, or will exist, is stored by light energy and transmitted through light energy then there is no knowledge beyond that intrinsic to light, and therefore OMNISCIENT.

 

Furthermore, light does not actually exist within the physical existence although we can somehow perceive it. As you approach the speed of light one of the three dimensions (length, height, and width), the dimension in line with the direction of motion, becomes progressively less, and at the speed of light that dimension becomes zero. To determine volume we multiply height times width times length, but if any one of those three dimensions is zero then the volume is zero, and that thing therefore does not exist in the material universe. Light occupies no volume of space and therefore has no existence in the physical universe.

 

And, while everything in the physical universe has some mass greater than zero, which is a necessary characteristic for existence in the material world, light has no mass at all. As you approach the speed of light mass increases, at the speed of light mass is infinite. Regardless of how tiny the amount of mass you begin with, that mass rises to infinity at the speed of light. Since photons travel at the speed of light and do not reach infinite mass it means that they had zero mass to begin with, and a light therefore does not actually exist in the material world.

 

In the physical existence everything is relative, the absolute existence or non-existence of any quality is not and can not be expressed, everything exists between those two extremes of the continuum from absolute expression to absolute non-expression. We find, though, that beyond the material existence all qualities either exist in an infinite state or have no existence at all, there is nothing in between.

 

Relativity proves nothing about the existence of any God. Photons are not omnipresent, all matter is not made of light and not omnipotent, knowledge is not stored by light and omniscient. None of this is a SCIENTIFIC proof that any God exists. It looks much more like personal philosophy than anything that anyone would call science.

[Biochemist]

...according to the most widely accepted theories of cosmology that the physical universe we see today was created out of nothingness...We also know that the beginning of the creation of the universe took place by light coming into existence at a singularity (a point with no dimension)....

Really interesting quote, Tinny. Where is this from?

None of this is a SCIENTIFIC proof that any God exists. It looks much more like personal philosophy than anything that anyone would call science.

C1- I agree that none of this is proof of God's existence. I suspect that was not the author's intent, but I can't tell from the source. However, to those that view Genesis 1 as complex metaphor (as most Christians do), this monograph is a reasonably coherent mapping of several early Genesis statements to generally accepted scientific fundamentals.

 

I suspect the author was attempting to demonstrate that current science describes a view of nature that is consistent with the special characteristics of God that are referenced in the Bible. I do not suspect the author was trying to prove the existence of God by the scientific method.

[Biochemist]

...The very idea of someone else knowing unknowable things better than I or you, or any other person past, present, or future, is ludicrous.

T- This is a bit of an odd statement coming from a guy as informed as you. I agree that the notion of an omnicient one (or a Creator for that matter) strains credulity, but so does most of what we know about physics. Particularly quantum physics. I agree with the point that Richard Feynman made when he said:

"..I think I can safely say that that nobody understands quantum methanics."

So much of QM is just so counterintuitive and, frankly, ludicrous. It just appears to be true.

 

It is not consistent with the scientific method to reject counteruntuitive arguments, solely because they are counterintuitive.

[Queso]

well now that we've established that everything we believe and have faith in is ludicrous, let's dance!

[Biochemist]

well now that we've established that everything we believe and have faith in is ludicrous, let's dance!

Hmmm. But if dancing is ludicrous, could we even do that?

 

Heck, yes.