Age and God; A correlation?

[Fishteacher73]

Every example can be shown to be deterministic retrospectively. I personally find this the only possible weak link in the concept of a deterministic universe. But to address a few concepts brought up as examples of free-will, they can be shown to have deterministic causes.

 

Also, those folks exposed to the arts who believe (with some justification) that they create beauty de novo also question the common sense of those who contend free will is absent.

 

In terms of art as an example of free-will; most artists can be recognized by their style. This style is the usual unifying theme in their work (style could as well be a conceptual construct as opposed to a mechanistic reference as to how the piece was made). This style is most times an extension of personality which is a reflecttion of genetics and experience and ergo caused.

 

In broad terms; life is a essentially a very complex chemical reaction. Chemistry follows basic physical laws and each reaction can be predicted with accuracy. At what point does the human chemical reaction get to ignore the laws of nature and "decide" to react in a manner in conflict with the fundamental laws?

 

Free-will is essentially impossible to test emperically though, because one would have to have identical test subjects with identical pasts to have the decision making event to be the only variable. (This could reasonably be done with bacterial cultures or fruit-flys, but it would be argued that they did not posess the complex mental capacity to exert free-will).

[Fishteacher73]

I brought up an experiment I believe in the Free-will thread that concerned magnetic field significantly altering "random decision-making" in humans...I'll see if I can reference the thread, or repost the study...

[bumab]

I remember that- very interesting study, I hadn't seen one that applicable to this debate before. Thanks!

 

While I don't know what research questions they were going after, is it possible to say they affected free will or only the persons ability to make decisions (or are those the same thing?). Obviously environment can have an affect on our decision making. Circumstances "cloud our judgement" etc etc. Is this a case of environmental influence or actual altering of the pre-conditions which led to the illusion of a decision?

 

Did the study go into that? I'm terribly curious.

[Fishteacher73]

Here's the refernce...It was in wiki under free will. I'll llok about to see if I can find any more about the study.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

A related experiment performed later by Dr. Alvaro Pascual-Leone involved asking subjects to choose at random which of their hands to move. He found that by stimulating different hemispheres of the brain using magnetic fields it was possible to strongly influence which hand the subject picked. Normally right-handed people would choose to move their right hand 60% of the time, for example, but when the right hemisphere was stimulated they would instead choose their left hand 80% of the time (recall that the right hemisphere of the brain is responsible for the left side of the body, and the left hemisphere for the right). Despite the external influence on their decision-making, the subjects continued to report that they believed their choice of hand had been made freely. Libet himself (e.g. Libet, 2003: 'Can Conscious Experience affect brain Activity? ', Journal of Consciousness Studies 10, nr. 12, pp 24 - 28), however, does not interpret his experiment as evidence of the inefficacy of conscious free will — he points out that although the tendency to press a button may be building up for 500 milliseconds, the conscious will retains a right to veto that action in the last few milliseconds. A good comparison made is with a golfer, who may swing the club several times before striking the ball. In this view, the action simply gets, as it were, a rubber stamp of approval at the last millisecond. Also, for planning tomorrow's activities or those in an hour millisecond offsets are insignificant.

[maddog]

Post #18:

To not believe in something that there is no proof of does not seem irrational. To attribute the unknown to some "supreme being" (yet again) does seem a bit irrational.

How about a Not-So Supreme... Maybe just a regular sized Taco Being. What is Spirit ? I know FT; I

have no proof. If not to Spirit exist, fine. If this could exist -- explain strange phenomina. I am

assuming that not all case of unexplained events could be faked or mistaken. Just a thought. :o

 

Maddog

[maddog]

Post #20

Theism is irrational almost by definition. It is based on belief in myths and superstition. Reasonable thinkers do not hold onto such notions for long.

I see this as limited thinking. A 120 years ago, the notion of aether was all the rage. Even though

the Michelson-Morley experiment did not resolve the problem (made it worse). Most people at the time

accepted that aether existed. Today we see this a farsical. Does that make it irrational at the time.

 

Yes, Theism's basic premise is not founded in logic or scientific method. It is founded on faith. Later,

FT said so is a bunch of other fictional characters. To the ones he mentioned I would agree with this

for 3-6 year olds [maybe I could still go for Tinkerbell]. :o This does show your bias towards atheism.

As I have said before, atheist is still a belief (NOT PROVABLE) and is accepted by atheists on faith.

Both paradigms to believe or not is on faith. I have no problem with either. :o

 

Maddog

[maddog]

To answer Fish's earlier question -- is there a correlation to age and God ?

 

I was musing on this and thougt -- what about that guy back in the 70's, Alvin Toeffler and increase in the

rate of change of society. Could this have an impact on the cynicism in the world ? Is it because of our

lack of adaption that we there must be no God to be in control and we left with the whim of causality for

all eternity. Could be...

 

Or maybe older people are as they are beginning to creak and make other noise are noticing their mortality

and look for an alternative for an afterlife to have after this one. Not sure.

 

Maybe a huge study of some age correlated questionaire to see there is a peak age where predominantly

people start having faith some sort of external control by something other than their own determination.

 

Until then just more conjetcture.

 

Maddog

[maddog]

Anything after that is explainable through laws, which may or may not have been created by God, but, since I do not think that within our universe something can come from nothing, then I must accept that it was something beyond our universe.

This bold piece actually does not agree with QM. There are such examples as Vacuum Fluctuations.

These are based upon Heisneberg's Uncertaincy Principle. From a Vaccum near absolute 0, particles can

get created from nothing into something. The expectation is that these theoretical existential particles

exist maybe only for a short time. It has been worked out where it could effect the entropy or

temperature of a space where this vacuum exists. The part about God is not addressed here.

 

Maddog

[maddog]

Where did this thread detour off the path to free will ? I've read part of it twice and I'm still finding it

hard to follow.... :o Just about everybody has given their opinion on whether "Free Will" exists. I

not read/seen/heard of any definition on what they consider "Free Will" is. So what is "Free Will" ???

Is this like Free Willy ? Meaning it is like there exists a "Will" running around loose ? Or, to take the

opposite viewpoint that Wills are all bound; there is NO Free Will ? If so, how does one go about

binding their will. Make a promise. If so, then does breaking that promise Free the Will up ?

 

Either way (free or bound) what is Will ? I will do something. Making a choice ? Don't we make

choices in our lives. Or does someone or something do that for us. Wouldn't that be that Supreme

Taco someone else mentioned earlier ?

 

I don't mean to sound flippant. Sorry I seem to be ranting like George Carlin [i think he did do a skit

on this once]. It is just that a lot of confusion exists between Free Will and Determinism and

Causality. There is a difference. Determinism came about after Newton's work the Principia

Mathematica where his Three Laws were written. By the middle 18th Century, Determinism was

the conventional wisdom Quid Pro Quo. A clockwork universe. All future events could be predicted

if enough information was give to determine the outcome. Even though a notion of Free Will might

have existed before it, what I have read was by the mid-18th Century it was at an ebb in reaction

to Determinism. Neither Free Will nor Determinism have anything to do with Causality. Which is a

method to look at the causes and effects in our lives moment to moment. We say the Cause is the

Source of the Effect and Effect is the outcome of the Cause. From this notion Laws of Physics were

derived. Free Will does not live outside Causality.

 

If I choose to drink a beer, I open the can, raise it to my lips and drink. Cause-Effect. I chose to

drink and I did. Of Free Will. I did not bind my will to do this. I did not conversely set it free either.

Now as to FT's challange to go out and find some Free Will. I would be curious to go out and find

any Will's of any type. In what form does one's will come in ? Maybe flavors... :o This thread

went from 0-90 almost, so I apologize if all my posts bunch up here in once place. Must have got

my Will all tied up in a knot...?! :shug:

 

Maddog

[Kirk Gregory Czuhai]

With each new generation of people on earth, everything is constantly being redefined and redirected. Unfortunately, religion has lately been less prominent in people's lives. So, I simply think that it is an overall passivity (or even ignorance in extreme cases) that attributes to people not believing in God or a higher power. I don't know - just a general observation

i am amazed at how often people in this science forum seem to think most other people think the way the majority do in this group.

jus the other day, one of the network television channels said they conducted a "scientific" poll of Americans and found that over 92% believed in some type of God, or supreme Being!

Actually I will just state that I am 100% convinced that there is no good religion other that the Christian religion and being convinced of this makes me want to continue to tell you out of concern for you to tell you that YOU WILL end up in HELL if you believe otherwise.

as far as age being a criteria for adopting a "theist attitude" as far a Christianity is concerned you have to be granted the ability to under stand the bible, in other words God picks you not the other way around as most of you in this forum seem to believe.

[Kirk Gregory Czuhai]

Where did this thread detour off the path to free will ? I've read part of it twice and I'm still finding it

hard to follow.... :) Just about everybody has given their opinion on whether "Free Will" exists. I

not read/seen/heard of any definition on what they consider "Free Will" is. So what is "Free Will" ???

Is this like Free Willy ? Meaning it is like there exists a "Will" running around loose ? Or, to take the

opposite viewpoint that Wills are all bound; there is NO Free Will ? If so, how does one go about

binding their will. Make a promise. If so, then does breaking that promise Free the Will up ?

 

Either way (free or bound) what is Will ? I will do something. Making a choice ? Don't we make

choices in our lives. Or does someone or something do that for us. Wouldn't that be that Supreme

Taco someone else mentioned earlier ?

 

I don't mean to sound flippant. Sorry I seem to be ranting like George Carlin [i think he did do a skit

on this once]. It is just that a lot of confusion exists between Free Will and Determinism and

Causality. There is a difference. Determinism came about after Newton's work the Principia

Mathematica where his Three Laws were written. By the middle 18th Century, Determinism was

the conventional wisdom Quid Pro Quo. A clockwork universe. All future events could be predicted

if enough information was give to determine the outcome. Even though a notion of Free Will might

have existed before it, what I have read was by the mid-18th Century it was at an ebb in reaction

to Determinism. Neither Free Will nor Determinism have anything to do with Causality. Which is a

method to look at the causes and effects in our lives moment to moment. We say the Cause is the

Source of the Effect and Effect is the outcome of the Cause. From this notion Laws of Physics were

derived. Free Will does not live outside Causality.

 

If I choose to drink a beer, I open the can, raise it to my lips and drink. Cause-Effect. I chose to

drink and I did. Of Free Will. I did not bind my will to do this. I did not conversely set it free either.

Now as to FT's challange to go out and find some Free Will. I would be curious to go out and find

any Will's of any type. In what form does one's will come in ? Maybe flavors... :cup: This thread

went from 0-90 almost, so I apologize if all my posts bunch up here in once place. Must have got

my Will all tied up in a knot...?! :shug:

 

Maddog

it may suprise you to know and i am sure a lot of you may disagree, but God IS and He knows EVERYTHING down to the smallest detail that you will do in your lifetime at your conception. So in this sense there is no free will at least in this sence if you are saved, Thank God for accepting you as one of his Children but if you cannot be saved have "fun?" where you will eventually go.

[Zythryn]

Actually I will just state that I am 100% convinced that there is no good religion other that the Christian religion...

 

God IS and He knows EVERYTHING down to the smallest detail that you will do in your lifetime at your conception.

 

So with these two statements in mind, why do you or why do any Christians try to convert others? After all, if it was decided at conception what we would do in life what can you do about it?

 

As for a correlation between age and belief. I believed in god when I was very young as that is what I was taught. Then I grew up and learned to reason. Soon after I stopped believing in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus I stopped believing in god(s) of the bible.

[Rincewind]

... I am 100% convinced that there is no good religion other that the Christian religion and being convinced of this makes me want to continue to tell you out of concern for you to tell you that YOU WILL end up in HELL if you believe otherwise.

 

... as far a Christianity is concerned you have to be granted the ability to under stand the bible, in other words God picks you not the other way around ...

What a nasty little god you have created for yourself there, Kirk. What makes Christianity such a good religion if it promulgates an image of a God who chooses just a few to join him in Heaven, and to condemn the vast majority of his creation to an eternity in Hell, and doesn't allow them to choose one or the other? According to you, He has decided at birth those He will "save" and those He will "condemn." I don't share your view of How It All Works.