In the name of God

[Freethinker]

There are groups of Muslims who espouse terrorism. And there are groups on the contrary. It goes to show that the acts depend on their interpretation and thus subjective.

"interpretation" of what Tinny? Oh ya, the Qu'ran! Seems Muslems are no more able to agree on what their god says in his various perfect and completely contradictory books. Each one flatly states that each's followers are to kill all others. Some ignore this call to duty and blame the others for "mis-interpreting" what is actually stated in them.

 

But when a self acknowledge follower of any of these texts actually does what the texts tell them to do, there is nothing that can remove that book and it's connected religion from direct responsibility for the action. It says kill and it's followers do.

"interpretation"Atheists have committed atrocious massacres too (refer to social darwinism). You can always say that it was because they wrongly interpreted the concept of Natural Selection. But it is still an atheistic concept and done by professed atheists such as Marx and Lenin.

However you show a complete lack of understanding of what Atheism is and how to apply it to determin it's responsibility for someone's actions. And we have gone thru this before Tinny, so I know you know better.

 

Again, the Qu'ran directly tells it's followers to kill non-folllowers. So it can be shown to be directly responsible for promoting the killing. IT SAYS SO!

 

Now show us this same published agreed written source of tenets for Atheism.

 

We all know it does not exist. *A*theism just means someone is NOT a Theist. That is all. To claim it means or is connected to anything else can not be supported in reality.

 

"Natural Selection" has NOTHING to do with Atheism. "Natural Selection" is a SCIENTIFIC concept.

[Freethinker]

All very true. It is not my intent to imply any majority of the believers of any faith have conducted evil in the name of God. There have certainly been a fair share of evil atheists as well. I wonder though, of the faithful, would the situation be the same without God.

No one does something because they DON'T believe in something. How many people are suicide bombers because they do not believe in the Easter Bunny? Or Zuess? Or Thor?

 

When a Muslem does something that is in the Qu'ran, are they doing it because they DON'T believe in Mithra? NO, they do it becausse they DO believe in their Mohammad. When a Christian does something from the bible, is it because they DON'T believe in Isis?

[Biochemist]

No one does something because they DON'T believe in something.

Funny. I would have contended that they main reason you are so animated against theists on this site is becasue you DON'T believe the way they do. If you treated discussion on non-value-laden science issues with as much obvious hostility, I would have believed you. But you are clearly different in style and clarity when taking on theists.

 

It seems to me that you personally are a good example against your own case.

[C1ay]

No one does something because they DON'T believe in something. How many people are suicide bombers because they do not believe in the Easter Bunny? Or Zuess? Or Thor?

 

When a Muslem does something that is in the Qu'ran, are they doing it because they DON'T believe in Mithra? NO, they do it becausse they DO believe in their Mohammad. When a Christian does something from the bible, is it because they DON'T believe in Isis?

 

I wasn't saying that those atheists that have commited evil did it because they didn't believe in something. They simply acted because they were bad people. OTOH, many of the people that acted evil in the name of God did so because of their belief.

[paradox]

If you treated discussion on non-value-laden science issues with as much obvious hostility, I would have believed you. But you are clearly different in style and clarity when taking on theists.

hostility ? We are not reading the same It seems

Determination to prove a point, yeah - hostility, not really

so, why do you feel attacked (by his 'hostile' words) ?

 

you're the only one who knows the answer, think about it

[paultrr]

I wasn't saying that those atheists that have commited evil did it because they didn't believe in something. They simply acted because they were bad people. OTOH, many of the people that acted evil in the name of God did so because of their belief.

 

Behind every act there is a reason. That reason can be faith based, reason or logic based, emotional based, etc. But there is always a reason for every act. Son of Sam claimed his own reason for his own actions as an example. As to religion based motivation a lot of the acts one sees commited in the name of some God or prophet also seems to depend a lot upon the way a certain group interprets things. For example, in this country not every christian out there finds grounds to go out and say bomb an abortion clinic. But some extreme groups do. Not every Christian finds grounds for being against certain races or ethnic groups. But some do. Not every christian group finds reason to arm themselves to the hilt. But certain fringe groups like the Davidians, for example, have. In each of these cases the central authority claimed for their actions is the Bible. But across the board how they all interpret that book is different.

 

The issue that cannot be gotten around is that down through the history of the Church(the body of believers) almost every crime possible has at one point or another been condoned by the established religious leaders of that time. The Catholic Church condoned murder at one point in the name of God and service to God's kingdom on a wholesale scale. Protestants themselves at least as organized sects have fallen into this themselves at different points in their history(ie Salem Witch Trials). All of these acts where done in the name of their God based upon how they interpreted the Bible.

 

Granted one could call into question their interpretation of the Bible. But the fact remains that God has been used by not only the Christian religion, as well as other religions for an excuse or reason to go out and kill, to injure, to conqure whole nations, etc. To a Christian God is both love, justice, vengence, etc. Taken as a whole, God's expression throughout the Bible runs from someone willing to wipe out nearly everything to serve his purpose(The Flood) to someone willing to send down his own Son to die to save people back to the Warrior King returning to his earth distroying everyone who stands in his path to the kingdom(Revelations). These are all extremes of the very character of God as outlined throughout the Bible's discourse. Man according to the same book was created in God's image. It's interesting to note that this image of God as outlined in the Bible tends to reflect the same extremes one finds within the human race itself. So it rather begs the question of who is created in who's image after all.

 

To the religious the answer to that question is that by faith they believe that we are created in God's image. To the athiest there is no God and at best all those religions are simply man's attempt at creating an image of a higher power in his own image. To the rest out there the answer tends to vary.

[paultrr]

No one does something because they DON'T believe in something. How many people are suicide bombers because they do not believe in the Easter Bunny? Or Zuess? Or Thor?

 

When a Muslem does something that is in the Qu'ran, are they doing it because they DON'T believe in Mithra? NO, they do it becausse they DO believe in their Mohammad. When a Christian does something from the bible, is it because they DON'T believe in Isis?

 

Certain people will always find reasons to do what they do with or without religion. The excuse is the religion. But the reality is they could have found another excuse even without the religion.

[paultrr]

Funny. I would have contended that they main reason you are so animated against theists on this site is becasue you DON'T believe the way they do. If you treated discussion on non-value-laden science issues with as much obvious hostility, I would have believed you. But you are clearly different in style and clarity when taking on theists.

 

.

 

It's true a lot of us do not believe. Our position on that is as much a right as you're position to believe. Its also true that as such it does color our perception of things. But in a lot of cases its also true that you're belief colors you're own perception of things. In general, you yourself display a hostility towards unbelief, towards evolution, towards a lot of things simply based upon the fact that you are a believer. It also colors you're perception of how things work in this universe the same as our position colors our own perception of such. To us everything comes by natural process and natural laws. To you everything stems from God. We base our view upon natural reason. You base you're view upon faith. Faith to us is not scientific at all and simply boils down to something that by nature cannot be studied via the scientific method.

 

No matter what you tend to think and inspite of every attempt out there to try and turn religion into something that can be discussed scientifically in the end run faith is not scientific. Religion and belief cannot be fully based upon reason alone. At the point one leaves behind reason then one also leaves behind any ability to soundly study such by scientific methods. Thomas the apostle wanted proof at the time he meet the risen Jesus. Christ showed him that proof according to the story. But, he also pointed out that the faith he was after was something different that transcends reason alone and simply accepts in spite of reason and logic.

 

What's missing today in the Church as a whole is that kind of faith. The general body of believers out there today are a lot like yourself. They tend to have a reason based form of godliness without, as the Bible puts it, the power therein. What they have done is traded in the faith Christ seemed to be after for a faith based upon reason in the hope that they can convince the rest of us godless types out there that belief is reasonable. They have taken the Great Commision as it is termed as an excuse to try and fight reason with reason when in reality the actual Biblical message was go tell the gospel story and let God's spirit do the rest. That my friend makes them and yourself in the position of that preacher in the movie Oh God. "Go tell God's Quarter back to quit preaching his words because he quit preaching my words a long time ago."

 

Either you have faith that transcends reason which actually implies you cannot use proper scientific methods to prove anything or what you have is some pseudo-interlectual reason based system that lacks any of the real power that the founder of you're religion was after in the first place. If the first is the truth then you need to skip all the pseudo-reasoning, present the gospel story and go on if no one choices to believe. If the second is the case then perhaps its time you quit calling yourself a believer and admit you're just another of those out there that is seeking to discover what life and this universe is all about. At the present you tend to think the universe argues for intelligent design. That being the case then what you really need is to find solid evidence of such that can be shown via experimental and observational means. Untill such time you have no real case to present, even inspite of all the odds on this and that happening because everything you have to present is based upon as much assumption as anyone elses cases.

[lindagarrette]

 

Either you have faith that transcends reason which actually implies you cannot use proper scientific methods to prove anything or what you have is some pseudo-interlectual reason based system that lacks any of the real power that the founder of you're religion was after in the first place. If the first is the truth then you need to skip all the pseudo-reasoning, present the gospel story and go on if no one choices to believe. If the second is the case then perhaps its time you quit calling yourself a believer and admit you're just another of those out there that is seeking to discover what life and this universe is all about. At the present you tend to think the universe argues for intelligent design. That being the case then what you really need is to find solid evidence of such that can be shown via experimental and observational means. Untill such time you have no real case to present, even inspite of all the odds on this and that happening because everything you have to present is based upon as much assumption as anyone elses cases.

Very well said!

[infamous]

Certain people will always find reasons to do what they do with or without religion. The excuse is the religion. But the reality is they could have found another excuse even without the religion.

 

Exactly paultrr; Self interest is the basis for all human decision making, weather described as religious or otherwise, the motive is still self interest. When convinced of their views, people will always rationalize their decisions for their acts by any means they can summon.

[motherengine]

Oh I love this guy. He speaks to dead people!

 

How about you speak for ONE, if not ALL.

 

Please show us all supportable quotes from Suicide bombers stating they were Atheists.

 

This should be interesting.

 

please show all supportable qotes from suicide bombers stating they were not atheists.

[motherengine]

i am curious if anyone can produce evidence taken from double blind testing done to determine the negative impact of religion on the human brain (like what has been done concerning violent material). otherwise, don't even attempt to convince anyone that your anti-religious views are anything but opinions formulated by condensing and trivializing the complexities of human behavior to suite a biased view.

[Biochemist]

please show all supportable qotes from suicide bombers stating they were not atheists.

ME- FrT was misconstruing something I wrote. I reported that Zarqawi was reported in the media to be arranging suicide bombers for political purposes, not for religious ones. That is, he is not driven by religious fundamentalism. FrT responded that the actual bombers are religious extremists.

[TINNY]

"interpretation" of what Tinny? Oh ya, the Qu'ran! Seems Muslems are no more able to agree on what their god says in his various perfect and completely contradictory books. Each one flatly states that each's followers are to kill all others. Some ignore this call to duty and blame the others for "mis-interpreting" what is actually stated in them.

How ridiculous. It is the same thing with social darwinism. you don't get exactly the same interpretation from every human being. Communist secular ideology causes massacres manifold worse than all the muslim terrorists damage in palestine.

 

Seems Muslems are no more able to agree on what their god says in his various perfect and completely contradictory books.

give example.

 

But when a self acknowledge follower of any of these texts actually does what the texts tell them to do, there is nothing that can remove that book and it's connected religion from direct responsibility for the action. It says kill and it's followers do.

Your understanding of Quranic interpretation is so shallow that I see no use of answering your accusations.

Tinny:Atheists have committed atrocious massacres too (refer to social darwinism). You can always say that it was because they wrongly interpreted the concept of Natural Selection. But it is still an atheistic concept and done by professed atheists such as Marx and Lenin.

Freethinker:However you show a complete lack of understanding of what Atheism is and how to apply it to determin it's responsibility for someone's actions. And we have gone thru this before Tinny, so I know you know better.

We have never gone through it. Don't try to run away from it. Please explain to me how atheism is applied here. Atheims has no basis for morality. Impartial and offhandedness is all there is. You are completely determined and that there is nothing you can do. The world is just a game of billiards to you.

 

We all know it does not exist. *A*theism just means someone is NOT a Theist. That is all. To claim it means or is connected to anything else can not be supported in reality.

to be put in such a general group is unfair. You're trying to run away. such sophism...

 

"Natural Selection" has NOTHING to do with Atheism. "Natural Selection" is a SCIENTIFIC concept.

so what is the basis of atheist philosophy?

[TINNY]

It has to be noted that muslim terrorists come from countries such as palestine where the people can hardly do anything other than do acts of 'terror' whereas Muslims in Malaysia never become suicide bombers.

[paultrr]

please show all supportable qotes from suicide bombers stating they were not atheists.

 

I think those who piloted those planes on 911 would not be labeled as athiests. Perhaps, religious zealots. They certainly decided to take their own lives and the lives of others in at least the name of their God. 10,000 virgins in the hereafter to those who serve Ala. Interesting for an exterme form of a religion which practices violations of human rights and down plays women as well as sex to promot people on with virgins as a reward in the beyond to go out and kill themselves and others.

[paultrr]

How ridiculous. It is the same thing with social darwinism. you don't get exactly the same interpretation from every human being. Communist secular ideology causes massacres manifold worse than all the muslim terrorists damage in palestine.

 

give example.

 

Your understanding of Quranic interpretation is so shallow that I see no use of answering your accusations.

We have never gone through it. Don't try to run away from it. Please explain to me how atheism is applied here. Atheims has no basis for morality. Impartial and offhandedness is all there is. You are completely determined and that there is nothing you can do. The world is just a game of billiards to you.

 

to be put in such a general group is unfair. You're trying to run away. such sophism...

 

so what is the basis of atheist philosophy?

 

Its more that atheist, having looked at the evidence make the decision that no god exists. Its interesting that some people looking at the same evidence make the decision that one cannot say for certain there is no God, and some make the decision there is one. Its all the same evidence being viewed differently because we are individuals after all.

 

"Atheims has no basis for morality. Impartial and offhandedness is all there is. You are completely determined and that there is nothing you can do. The world is just a game of billiards to you."

 

That's interesting how to the athiest everything is deterministic. However, I would agree that atheism has no basis for morality whatsoever. In general, if the world is that deterministic then why attach any morality to any acts or events. It should be a situation of no real choice to begin with. People will do what they are predetermined to do no matter what laws of morality exist. If the guy next door murders you're child. Then he was predetermined to do such. He's not an evil guy. Sure you feel like you ought to shoot the bastard. But, so what. Even if you do then you can always understand that you were also predetermined to do such. No need for morality here I'd say. Remember, Impartial and offhandedness is all there is. Its actually more like situation ethics which in and of itself is not always that impartial. In a real impartial world there would be no reason to kill the guy at all because even one's feeling in that case would be predetermined. Yet, I doub't any atheist alive would feel like standing by when some bastard killed their child. They'd see that act as evil and wrong as anyone else would. Yet, its also an inconsistant position with a system that has no moral position to attach such morality to such an act. Its certainly isn't impartial at that point.

 

However, you are right that such a blanket statement about all those who kill themselves being atheists is not right.