Knowledge + Humility = Cowardice

[Kriminal99]

I also know that people dont appreciate that, or sometimes find it offensive, or hostile, or maybe even shovenistic, but you need to have people who will understand you, if you have people who understand you, the rest matter little...

 

What happens when someone who trusted your judgement, molds your words and takes advantage of it to rescue people and gets awarded by you, and nothing you say will change how others view that person? Now then, unless you find people who work with you and trust you, i would say, even though you saved those people, you may be more encouraged to look another way next time, wouldn't you say?

 

I dunno, i'm thinking out loud...

 

I think your absolutely right about the people who understand you part. My family is not like this at all, and I spend a lot of time around them anyways (like a couple weekends a month) besides having grown up with them. With them it is kind of strange (or maybe normal), you are only seen as knowledgable if you can describe things in a humorous manner, or when you are talking about fast moving vehicles and other guy stuff. Any philisophical wisdom or comment on difficult abstract issues is seen as weakness. Every once in a while I get a single idea through that might even affect them or help them in important ways.

 

I have become so used to this that I have begun to look at it like this is the way it is supposed to be for people like us. The few people I have met that I knew understood a lot of the same things as I or more I made no special effort to make them a large part of my life.

 

As if even if you finally did meet another person who understood a lot of the same things, the most we could do is nod to each other as might passing knights on their righteous paths to influence humanity in a good manner.

 

How much simpler would it be if most of the people you knew and interacted with knew these things... But is forming such a clique and keeping to yourself the best thing to do? I mean every minute you spend interacting with such people is one less minute you spend interacting with people who might learn things from you.

 

I look at it like people only do what they know to do. I have been around a lot of particularly dishonest people before who have done exactly what you have described and they have made me quite angry at times. But on the other hand I can see much of why they behave in this manner. Some people lie because they think they have to in order to be perceived as normal. Some people lie because they think it serves some greater purpose (like social norms) which isn't really a greater purpose at all. I usually just confront these people with arguments that counter what might be motivating their behavior. Sometimes they just become better liars, sometimes they understand what I try to convince them of.

[modest]

But, you certainly don't think that's always the case?...

 

<...>

 

..."Well gee I would love to run around telling everyone how it is but that is arrogant", as if you are doing it just to get people to pay attention to you....

 

But, certainly you don't think that avoiding the appearance of arrogance is the only reason not to share information? Perhaps you do assume that avoiding the appearance of arrogance is, by and large, why people remain silent when they know something that others do not.

 

I wouldn't make that assumption. Nor would I assume that someone incessantly voicing their opinion does so to avoid the appearance of humility.

 

These would seem odd motivations to attribute people.

 

~modest

[alexander]

Time for another krim post digest :phones:

I think your absolutely right about the people who understand you part. My family is not like this at all, and I spend a lot of time around them anyways (like a couple weekends a month) besides having grown up with them. With them it is kind of strange (or maybe normal), you are only seen as knowledgable if you can describe things in a humorous manner, or when you are talking about fast moving vehicles and other guy stuff. Any philisophical wisdom or comment on difficult abstract issues is seen as weakness. Every once in a while I get a single idea through that might even affect them or help them in important ways.

First of all, how your knowledge is seen is dependent on how you assert yourself in the first place. I have friends with whom i would only discuss cars and make smart-*** remarks in a humorous way. These are people who don't need more then what they have in life, they are not knowledge-striders, and have basically reached the peak of their thinking development. These, by the way are young and old, from 18 to 48 years old, both male and female.

Yet there are others, to whom asserting myself as a person who likes philosophy, and commonly has historic remarks, and so forth, has helped them come out and try to discuss ideas that they too don't have an audience for, and though with few friends in that category all really liking to discuss different things, and they learn and teach, it's usually a mutual exchange, and they evolve on that level as thinkers, which is, imho, a success, at least on some level...

 

I have become so used to this that I have begun to look at it like this is the way it is supposed to be for people like us. The few people I have met that I knew understood a lot of the same things as I or more I made no special effort to make them a large part of my life.

Oh but its about personal relationships, you can share information all you like, if you don't like the person, you won't listen to what they really have to say and it becomes one way communication, in which a personal relationship either stays very distant, or inexistant, and vise-versa...

 

As if even if you finally did meet another person who understood a lot of the same things, the most we could do is nod to each other as might passing knights on their righteous paths to influence humanity in a good manner.

Once again, it depends on how you assert yourself, as to how you get received by others, if you can intreague someone from the get-go, and have a constructive conversation, it still doesn't mean that you will have a relationship... been there a lot of times, with some pretty damn smart people, and yet my best and closest friends are those who fit more in the first category i described above. But they can understand me as a person, and i'm happy to try to increase their IQ :)

 

How much simpler would it be if most of the people you knew and interacted with knew these things... But is forming such a clique and keeping to yourself the best thing to do? I mean every minute you spend interacting with such people is one less minute you spend interacting with people who might learn things from you.

it wouldn't be any simpler, ponder living in a world where everyone has an iq of 190...

 

I look at it like people only do what they know to do. I have been around a lot of particularly dishonest people before who have done exactly what you have described and they have made me quite angry at times. But on the other hand I can see much of why they behave in this manner. Some people lie because they think they have to in order to be perceived as normal. Some people lie because they think it serves some greater purpose (like social norms) which isn't really a greater purpose at all. I usually just confront these people with arguments that counter what might be motivating their behavior. Sometimes they just become better liars, sometimes they understand what I try to convince them of.

Oh, but "ignorance is a bliss", sure you have heard that one, and it's very true to some extent. Simply, would you go and try to tell a perfectly happy person, who wakes up and goes to sleep mumbling Jesus Christ, that their religion is fundementally flawed in logic, because you "know these things" and make them angry at you and unhappy in life, or would you walk by and let them be blissfully ignorant? Not all knowledge is meant to be shared with all people, how we filter may be different, but wouldn't you agree that filter we must?

[Kriminal99]

But, certainly you don't think that avoiding the appearance of arrogance is the only reason not to share information? Perhaps you do assume that avoiding the appearance of arrogance is, by and large, why people remain silent when they know something that others do not.

 

I wouldn't make that assumption. Nor would I assume that someone incessantly voicing their opinion does so to avoid the appearance of humility.

 

These would seem odd motivations to attribute people.

 

~modest

 

No. The other motivation, as I have implied, is ignorance. If they don't know if they can get anyone to agree, that is ignorance of how best to share their idea, or address the hangups that people have with the idea.

[Kriminal99]

Time for another krim post digest :)

 

First of all, how your knowledge is seen is dependent on how you assert yourself in the first place. I have friends with whom i would only discuss cars and make smart-*** remarks in a humorous way. These are people who don't need more then what they have in life, they are not knowledge-striders, and have basically reached the peak of their thinking development. These, by the way are young and old, from 18 to 48 years old, both male and female.

Yet there are others, to whom asserting myself as a person who likes philosophy, and commonly has historic remarks, and so forth, has helped them come out and try to discuss ideas that they too don't have an audience for, and though with few friends in that category all really liking to discuss different things, and they learn and teach, it's usually a mutual exchange, and they evolve on that level as thinkers, which is, imho, a success, at least on some level...

 

 

Oh but its about personal relationships, you can share information all you like, if you don't like the person, you won't listen to what they really have to say and it becomes one way communication, in which a personal relationship either stays very distant, or inexistant, and vise-versa...

 

 

Once again, it depends on how you assert yourself, as to how you get received by others, if you can intreague someone from the get-go, and have a constructive conversation, it still doesn't mean that you will have a relationship... been there a lot of times, with some pretty damn smart people, and yet my best and closest friends are those who fit more in the first category i described above. But they can understand me as a person, and i'm happy to try to increase their IQ :)

 

 

it wouldn't be any simpler, ponder living in a world where everyone has an iq of 190...

 

 

Oh, but "ignorance is a bliss", sure you have heard that one, and it's very true to some extent. Simply, would you go and try to tell a perfectly happy person, who wakes up and goes to sleep mumbling Jesus Christ, that their religion is fundementally flawed in logic, because you "know these things" and make them angry at you and unhappy in life, or would you walk by and let them be blissfully ignorant? Not all knowledge is meant to be shared with all people, how we filter may be different, but wouldn't you agree that filter we must?

 

I don't really see it like I should just leave those people alone cause they have all they need though. Just keeping what they have is an issue, and often time their less informed choices slowly add up to disaster over time. When that happens, they suddenly seem very open minded as well. There have been cultures in the distant past that have successfully integrated knowledge and virtue into their every day lives. In this regard I feel as though the Greeks may have been far more knowledgeable than people today in many ways. We seem to lack the constant exposure to threats that would make us aware of the value of doing this.

 

I guess part of the issue for me is that I have never met someone that I really saw as more knowledgeable than me overall. Maybe when I was younger and had my first philosophy class, I felt this way about my professor... and maybe a certain high school teacher. I have met a few people that I knew understood a lot of the same things and were sort of on the same path, but that really couldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. Conversations with them were definitely more satisfying than talking to normal people, because they actually understood and cared about the things I had to say. Most of these people seemed fond of me, and I feel the same way as them, but I guess for me to really feel attached to someone because of that they would have to teach me a few things.

 

IQ seems to be a separate issue. Everyone in my family has the same IQ as me (or at least they did at one point, before the alcohol and whatever else). For those ignorant is bliss people it just seems to make them more witty and better and understanding things that are explained to them when they feel they should (like for work).

 

If everyone was both intelligent and knowledgeable, the worst that could happen would be socialism. Anyone could be a doctor or lawyer, so the wages for those jobs, if any different than other jobs, would only reflect the difference in time to train for them (which should be shorter if everyone was that smart). I could relax and have more fun, because I knew that most people wouldn't be totally blind towards all the things they were doing wrong.

[modest]

But, certainly you don't think that avoiding the appearance of arrogance is the only reason not to share information?...

No. The other motivation, as I have implied, is ignorance....

 

Then again...

 

"He must be very ignorant for he answers every question he is asked." ~Voltaire

 

:rolleyes:

 

~modest

[Pyrotex]

Simply put, sharing knowledge is a two-way street.

The listener must meet the speaker halfway.

 

Those with knowledge learn all too quickly that knowledge freely given away has no value. It is derided, ignored, castigated, spit upon, discarded. The speaker learns all too quickly that it is a waste of time to share knowledge unless the listener demonstrates a commitment to receiving that knowledge.

 

It is not because I'm a coward that I don't share with you how to build a telescope, how to program a VBA macro in Excel, how to woo and win a girlfriend, how to write posts that people really want to read, how to achieve inner satisfaction with your life or how to build a reputation for integrity.

 

It is because I have no time to waste.

 

Sharing knowledge is like playing high-stakes poker.

I'm not even going to sit at the table with you until you ante up.