Communist-capitalist

[Fishteacher73]

There have been forms of anarchy in the past. Essentially any tribal group was an anarchist system. Laws helped tribal groups move into larger societies and culture. Hmmurabi's Code is the oldest existing written law code. Most all gov'ts have some connetion to this original code. Without this type of system (many analogs existed prior but they were pretty much along the same lines) larger groups would not have been able to form.

 

The real importance of what Hammurabi did, is to establish a coherent "rule of law" which was independent of ethnic or tribal custom, or even familial or monarchical whim. This was a real achievement. Until then, what passed for "law" was simply custom — or the dictate of a monarch. It could change from generation to generation — or even from minute to minute. By deriving a single code of laws from the body of custom of his day, Hammurabi made law something objective, and less personal — and therefore more stable & predictable.

The importance of this cannot be overstated. The Code of Hammurabi sparked commerce, even in his own time, and ever after, made commercial transactions all the more attractive. His Code also provided a means of making decisions based on fair, objective criteria. Where once, monarchs or patriarchs or clan-chiefs had to make all legal decisions, occupying their time with useless minutiae, such things could be turned over to others (typically, scribes) who would make those decisions, based on the Code. In a very real way, we owe to Hammurabi the notion of a separate judiciary, as part of overall government — and this is a hallmark of modern democratic governments, the world over.

[lindagarrette]

In a very real way, we owe to Hammurabi the notion of a separate judiciary, as part of overall government — and this is a hallmark of modern democratic governments, the world over.

Well said, FT.

[Fishteacher73]

AS important as law has been, there are plenty of examples of law gone awry. It is human nature for some to use what ever system or institution is available for their own gain. This is why systems need built in safeguards that at least retard (if not cmopletly thwart) the efforts of individuals to hijack them.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

BIOCHEMIST, I sit corrected.

 

I apologize for being too general on the 'teach our children'. It was in the societal sense, as in school.

 

Not having gone to school in quite some time, I have probably spoken without knowing the facts first hand. But gauging by the things I see on TV and read in the paper, I am assuming that public schools emphasize voting with little or no emphasis on critical thinking, logic, and a respect for truth. Public means standardized, in my mind, so I assume that it is fairly safe to apply this to all public schools in all areas. I hope I'm wrong.

 

I also have firsthand knowledge of how powerful the vote can be and how insidiously tyranical democracy can be.

 

In my area, the local schools involved the children in getting out the vote for an amendment that called for building a new school with an initial cost estimate of 18 million dollars. The town has less than 4,000 inhabitants and if they can fill it with the surrounding towns a graduating class will have 200 max students. After 6 failed attempts over a 12 year period, it passed. My property taxes went up $600 per year (the first year) and you can bet that there will be more to come. For what? More computers in the classroom? Faster access to the internet? The product will not change. Only the cost. Now we'll pay more for less. Sorry, I need to stop there or I'll start foaming at the mouth and short out my keyboard.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply though and I like your style.

[Fishteacher73]

...I apologize for being too general on the 'teach our children'. It was in the societal sense, as in school.

 

Not having gone to school in quite some time, I have probably spoken without knowing the facts first hand. But gauging by the things I see on TV and read in the paper, I am assuming that public schools emphasize voting with little or no emphasis on critical thinking, logic, and a respect for truth. Public means standardized, in my mind, so I assume that it is fairly safe to apply this to all public schools in all areas. I hope I'm wrong.....

 

 

First I think it is not the school's job to teach values...These should be taught at home. I have enough of a handfull teaching my subject matter to have to teach little Johnny manners on top of the quadratuc formula. I see no problem reinforcing these tennents in class, but class time in math class should be used for math.

 

I would stongly suggest you take a look at the state of your school before you know what it needs or does not need. At my school we simply cannot hire the staff needed for these kids because people do not want to pay for the services i'm lucky if I can get paper for the copy machine on a day that it happens to be running (because we cannot afford a new one)... The less you spend on schools the more you will spend on law enforcement and prisons.

[Fishteacher73]

People only vote for what they think is important. More people voted in the final episode of American Idle ( ;) ) in 2000 than voted in the presidential election.

[Biochemist]

First I think it is not the school's job to teach values...

Goodness, I certainly think that is true.

...At my school we simply cannot hire the staff needed for these kids because people do not want to pay for the services ... The less you spend on schools the more you will spend on law enforcement and prisons.

This would be a great thread topic. FsT-want to start one?

[Biochemist]

People only vote for what they think is important. More people voted in the final episode of American Idle ( ;) ) in 2000 than voted in the presidential election.

FsT- I just thought I would mention that you put the words "think" and "American Idle {sic}" in the same sentence. This is a very disturbing concept.

[tarak]

Who decides for whom???When anarchy evolves, laws are laid down in whichever way they manifest,but by a force..the force of a majority decision or muscle power or whatever...Hummurabi codes or magna cartas or even the Indian Manu code of social stratification emerge...all out of selfish mutual interest of human survival.

 

This king had thought tangentially and did something different which paved the way for many things in future

[Qfwfq]

Qfwfq, I doubt that anyone knows the leoncavallo center outside northern italy and southern switzerland (where I actually come from "conosci il Ticino, no?"), unless some alternative tourists.

I was optimistic that you would have heard the names! Actually, I wouldn't be so restrictive, apart from them having friends and acquaintances far and wide they have sure made themselves noticed :xx: even by people who wouldn't quite recognize those names.

 

Dove nel Ticino? Bellinzona, Lugano, Chiasso?

[Qfwfq]

My argument is that anarchy has no construct to provide for the common good. The only mechanisms (to date) established to accomplish that end are a) totalinarianisn, or :xx: some form of capitalism.

Where do you get that kind of idea? The ideology does not mean lack of organization. Organization is not by definition politics and/or authority. As for a) and :xx: I really gape at your logic, totalitarianism isn't a way to provide for the common good at all and Capitalism isn't the only way.

 

If we were to contend that no "common good" is required, then anarchy would be viable.

Anarchists do not contend that.

 

no common infrastructure (e.g, utilities, roads, banks, etc)

On which grounds?

folks would then tend to aggregate for common defense (e.g., feudalism).

Again, I repeat, read up on the history. Where do you get this idea about how feudalism came about? Feudalism is something imposed, starting with conquest or an ethnic prevalence. Spontaneous aggregation needn't lead to it, and certainly not before the folks have spontaneously bowed down to their King. In medieval Europe it came about after Charlemagne had won the whole of Europe, with his idea of how to organize such a vast empire, it worked no longer than there was loyalty toward the vertex of the hierarchy.

 

I do not understand what you are asking here.

Sorry, I couldn't connect with a question of mine, where was I asking what?

 

I see that Sanctus has argued against many of your misconceptions so I won't insist. I am by no means optimistic about the anarchist ideology but I at least try to get facts straight and I argue based on what is meant by the ideology.

[Qfwfq]

First I think it is not the school's job to teach values...

I have reserves about that. School should not teach an ideology because it should not be an instrument of politics, even less of a regime, but it should cooperate with the parents about values, it should be a help in building a society.

 

People only vote for what they think is important.

How about: for what they care about? It would disturb Bio a lot less! I got the message, although I've never seen that show, has anybody here ever read Farenheit 451?

[sanctus]

So Biochemist I guess we eventually agree, you talk about why anarchy nowadays doesn't work annd I talk about a society in which anarchy could work. To some stage I agree with your statements (not that totalitarism and capitalism are the only options, but that would be another thread), don't you agree with mine if you look at a society where laws aren't needed (I emphatise the difference between laws abolished and laws not needed)?

 

 

And Qfwq, Locarno l'unica città che non hai menzionato.

[Qfwfq]

M'ero scordato di Locarno!

 

I might add that Biochemist is not arguing about anarchy, Socialism, Communism and Capitalism.

 

Bio is arguing against the first three and pro the last, and with arguments against the first three being intrinsically based on axioms of a Capitalist doctrine as if these were sine qua non for a just society to function. This makes it futile, imv, to exchange pov. A reasonable exchange requires lifting, not only of the axioms, but of bias as well. Even the misconceptions seem hard to lift, but I percieve Bio's arguments bringing in feudalism or the Chinese as being somewhat propagandistic anyway.

[emessay]

I still convince that dichotomy of communist-capitalist was started by US+UK, but actually it's natural when human consciousness itself is still learning from basic dichotomy 'POOR AND RICH'. The conception communism/socialism, capitalism are simliar based on materialism, they are growing together with conception bringing by Charles Darwin of 'survival the fittest by natural selection' . Marx, Engels , Darwin have accelarated human consciousness till now the balance global conditions 'when humans able to annihilate earth,its life and ourselves ' , of course by nukes. It is meant that human consciousness is approaching micro-cosmic level 10exp(-32) kg till.......10exp(-100) kg next maybe....super-string explainable. But poorly our understanding of consciousness process in 200 billion neurons are still 'far beyond'. What's meant 'conscious free will' ? Are we a matter of carbonic compounds plus electron exchanges ?

The problem if we can not explain ourselves : "who are we ??" , I think also we have same problem to answer why human having equality genes sequence with chimpanzee of 98%, then is that the remaining 2% containing 'universe conciousness' capability ?? or we're only 'puppet' because we can not explain 'the remaining 2%'. So who controlled 'us' till now we live ??

 

Ok by the way , I think Bill Gate have succesfully to prove that capitalism is 'the truth way' of human culture coming this millenium now we easily enjoy to communicate by internet.

[C1ay]

Ok by the way , I think Bill Gate have succesfully to prove that capitalism is 'the truth way' of human culture coming this millenium now we easily enjoy to communicate by internet.

Can you imagine the incentive Bill Gates would enjoy somewhere like Cuba?

[Biochemist]

Where do you get that kind of idea? The ideology does not mean lack of organization....

Now I am really confused. What kind of organization could exist in anarchy that would not carry some other label (e.g., democracy, communism, etc)?