Do we really need to fund foreign students?

[Kriminal99]

In light of Obama's new plans, I thought I would take a moment to discuss the real benefit of our academic policies.

 

Claim 1: Most modern issues of racism are actually issues of favoritism combined with the unfair advantages in gaining favor afforded to those of the same race and/or culture.

 

Justification if you don't agree:

 

Whenever a person has more in common with a certain group or individual, they tend to be more aware of those persons' capabilities and more forgiving of any weaknesses those people might have. Normally this is just considered part of life... some people make an effort to counteract this and be more objective when making important decisions about people and their abilities to effectively solve real world problems.

 

Other naive individuals think that the ability to be in everyone's favor is the only important skill in life and therefore treat this as the best justification for decisions about people.

 

And most people are probably somewhere in between, and so this effect definitely affects the degree to which people are able to be judged based on their actual abilities and accomplishments.

 

One thing that is clear is that people of the same race, culture or even sub-culture have more in common with each other. When my coworkers speak of the movie the color purple, or a weave, and I don't know what they are talking about, they may feel a little insecure and/or challenged by the lack of universality of their pop culture. Unless there is a large group of such people that they are forced to contend with, they may try and gang up against and punish the minority for lack of familiarity with what they consider a social norm.

 

In a workplace or academic setting, these feelings can easily spill over into perceptions of that person as an employee or academic.

 

Claim 3: No unique benefit is achieved by cultivating this amount of foreign talent as opposed to local talent

 

This policy might have made a little more sense when America was so far ahead of every other country economically, and everyone wanted to be in America. More and more people are going back to their own countries after we fund their education.

 

Personally, I don't believe it was ever a good idea. The reasoning behind this idea is clearly that there are more intelligent people in the world than there are in America. Such an argument seems straightforward. The problem that I have with it is, we have not limited ourselves to importing and funding the uniquely intelligent people - some top tiny percent of foreign talent that couldn't be found in our own backyard. Rather we are importing people that could easily be replaced by American citizens. American citizens who would stay in American and contribute to our economy after receiving their education. American citizens who would pay taxes in America to fund the education system that gives these educations. American citizens who have an invested interest in this country.

 

These foreign students and faculty have no doubt become quite proficient at making themselves seem invaluable, and perhaps replacing faculty members could prove difficult in the short term. But by what objective measure are these people somehow more capable than American citizens would be in the same roles?

 

In my own personal experience, these students have shown no extreme spark of independent creativity and depend heavily on the social structure to survive. Much as most American students probably would in their stead, but so then why are they here?

 

They are not just filling a void caused by a lack of American academics, they deter American academics

 

These groups often openly downplay the abilities and accomplishments of people outside their immediate racial or culture group. Each group does not view itself as racist in any way, no of course not. It's just a coincidence that (in their view) there are more capable members of their own race/group than there are in others. Each group would be flabbergasted at such notions as these, and point to those members of other groups that they do respect (and favor in the way mentioned above). But then you take a step back and notice distinct trends among those people chosen to favor outside of their own racial/cultural groups. The Arabs hang out with smokers of other groups outisde the building. Many Hindus most respect devout followers of other religions such that said religions significantly affect their lives. etc.

 

There are many intelligent faculty members who simply avoid playing favorites and thus avoid such issues. This itself is a sign of being more capable of recognizing the abilities and accomplishments of people outside your normal comfort zone. Some individuals are quite capable of ignoring these boundaries and shifting to different points of view and recognizing everyone's abilities. But this is not the norm.

 

The net result is that, in being a minority, American citizens are deterred in their pursuit of higher education for no other reason than that there are less people singing their praises.

[Tormod]

This is close-minded at best, nationalistic protectionism at best.

 

You seem to make a lot of claims:

- Your argument fails to note the fact that the US is not the only country harboring foreign students

- You seem to think that foreigners "take" the places that are "reserved" for Americans. What about the American students studying abroad? (The term is "exchange").

- You forget that many - many - students are from European countries.

- You sem to have some sort of research indication that all Chinese and Indian students on US universities are foreigners

 

As a former undergrad student in the US, and one who has friends who are foreign students in Norway (yes! Gasp! Even Americans!), I can say that there are indeed unique benefits from this system. Many of those benefits are gained by the actual students, but many are gained from the culture the students come to. Like learning how to coexist with people who think, talk, and act differently. This creates a richer environment and improved understanding.

 

What are your experiences as foreign student?

[Kriminal99]

Yeah but we are talking about funding foreign students with our tax dollars not letting them come here at all. Protection of my nation is exactly what this is about. If the world is developing such that America is no longer going to be a top economic superpower as it perhaps once was, then fine: Time to stop handing money out to everyone outside our country and forgiving people violating our immigration policies and eroding our quality of life. Let these people fend for themselves and create what we have in their own countries.

 

It is so like you to move an obvious political claim from the political science forum to the strange claims forum just because you don't agree with it. Childish.

[CraigD]

Claim 2: American citizens are a minority in America's own education system

 

This is simply factual, walk into any university all across America and see the percentage of Indian vs Chinese vs Amercans in each graduate dept.

Can you support this claim, Krim? Walking into a school and gathering the impression that there are a lot of non-light-skinned people there is not very sound surveying!

 

I was able to fairly quickly find a source contradicting this claim: US NCES fast facts: What is the percentage of degrees conferred by sex and race?. According to its data, about 5% of 2006-2007 US college graduates at all degree levels, and about 28% of PhD level grads, were non-resident aliens.

[Tormod]

Yeah but we are talking about funding foreign students with our tax dollars not letting them come here at all. Protection of my nation is exactly what this is about.

 

Funding of international students is part of the exchange programs. So for each student who receive funding in the US, you can assume that some other country is funding similar education for a US student in another country.

 

It is so like you to move an obvious political claim from the political science forum to the strange claims forum just because you don't agree with it. Childish.

 

Thanks mate. But I didn't in fact move it. I found it here.

[Kriminal99]

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[Kriminal99]

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[Cuauhtzin]

and the problem there is because...?

 

United states of north america is a nation strongly of inmigrants. The U.S. has take a lot of advanteges from the Brain Robbering (fuga de cerebros?). always with the discurss of the land of liberty and democracy, and iquals... what were you waiting for?

 

All countrys have funds for foreing students, and those who achieve that priviliges are because they have earn it (or al very very lucky son´s of a person with good realtionships).

If you said that intelligent americans could be using that funds.. what are you concerning for?, if they are good students they can afford a scholarchip (beca?).

[Buffy]

No, no, no, you just do *not* understand. You see, if I was born here--and realize my family has been in America forever--like since 1984--and these FOB's think that they can come in, get full scholarships and just because they kiss the professor's asses, they get A's while I--a true native American--am looked down upon as trailer trash because I have to actually pay tuition, and am persecuted by these uppity professors who simply can't understand that I am far more brilliant than they are, and who give me poor grades which is against all laws of deduction.

 

It's really all because they base their illogical theories on induction, which as we all know is a completely false and dogmatic world view.

 

No seriously C, you might want to take a look at the the title of the particular forum this thread happens to appear in....

 

[Humanity] has unquestionably one really effective weapon—laughter. Power, money, persuasion, supplication, persecution—these can lift at a colossal humbug—push it a little—weaken it a little, century by century; but only laughter can blow it to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand, :phones:

Buffy

[Cuauhtzin]

i really dont understand, maybe i cant detect double sense and sarcasm in english, im not really sure.

 

that I am far more brilliant than they are

well if that happens with one or two, maybe y can nderstand.. but if this is all professors, maybe you are not SO "brilliant"...

 

And well, im not sure what kind of funding is that thay you are talking about that they give free education to every foreing they see, because, well "im foreign" and its not easy to get "free funding education"

[Kriminal99]

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[CraigD]

No seriously C, you might want to take a look at the the title of the particular forum this thread happens to appear in...

Who is C?

My guess is that Buffy is referring to Cuauhtzin, who’s post immediately preceded hers, and who’s name member name begins with “C”. Were she referring to you, I’d expect her to call you “Krim” or “K”.

I don't have a problem with it when a few intelligent respectful people are funded to pursue education with us, I just think it gets a bit silly when we start carting over cliques of close-minded religious fanatics who start harassing us in our own universities and complaining to the professors when the "stupid looking white boy" gets better grades than they did.

You’ve voiced similar complaints about your teachers and classmates before. The best advice remains, I think, what your received in response to those previous posts: if you are being harassed, bring it to the attention of your school’s administration. In most US colleges, a good way to begin doing this is by speaking with your academic advisor. Every large college with which I’m familiar has explicit policies against harassment, and compulsory procedures for responding to accusations of it.

 

However, based on your behavior at hypography, I believe you should be careful not to be emotionally agitated when dealing with this or other problems in school, as such a state tends to produce behavior that will cause others to dismiss your accusations and complaints, and can even result in you being disciplined, rather than those you seek to have be.

 

If you have difficult controlling your emotions in such situations, you may want to consider counseling, or if your are already in counseling, continue it. The inability to be emotionally controlled when appropriate can be severely debilitating.

I seriously hope you don't think you are talking to me silly little girl.

...

Also trying to point to the fact that a thread is in the "silly claims forum" where you put it because your tiny brain couldn't handle the claims being made in it is called circular reasoning. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe that the claim is actually silly just because some simple minded moderator classified it as such.

:) As you should know, having had your posting privileges suspended for it before, this sort of language is considered “harassment” at hypography, and isn’t allowed. You mustn’t do it, or your posting privileges will be suspended again. :thumbs_up

 

Uncouthness aside, “tiny brain” isn’t a very good put-down for a science site, as it’s anatomically silly, as humans with truly tiny brains are so severely handicapped that they almost certainly couldn’t post at any internet forum, let alone moderate and administer one.

[Humanity] has unquestionably one really effective weapon—laughter. Power, money, persuasion, supplication, persecution—these can lift at a colossal humbug—push it a little—weaken it a little, century by century; but only laughter can blow it to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand,

Btw, laughter is just a release of insecurity that a person feels when they realize they are not the only one that have that insecurity. I have dealt with plenty of simple minded cliques of people who thought they could stand up to someone like me by hiding the look of fear of their own ignorance behind nervous laughter...

In Buffy’s posts, the “” smiley usually means the nearby text is a quote. Lots of us find it fun to try and identify the source of the quote without resorting to an web search, or fun to just look up without making that effort.

 

In this case, in the context in which it appears, laughter refers not to what a small clique of people use to relieving their insecurity, but to a large segment of society does in reaching a consensus to reject a widespread but incorrect idea – a “colossal humbug”.

[Moontanman]

Who is C? I have a near perfect GPA and could pay tuition for dozens of people without it putting a dent in my net worth. Hell with the amount I paid in taxes last year is more than what it costs to put a few of them through school.

 

I don't have a problem with it when a few intelligent respectful people are funded to pursue education with us, I just think it gets a bit silly when we start carting over cliques of close-minded religious fanatics who start harassing us in our own universities and complaining to the professors when the "stupid looking white boy" gets better grades than they did.

 

Btw, laughter is just a release of insecurity that a person feels when they realize they are not the only one that have that insecurity. I have dealt with plenty of simple minded cliques of people who thought they could stand up to someone like me by hiding the look of fear of their own ignorance behind nervous laughter...

 

Also trying to point to the fact that a thread is in the "silly claims forum" where you put it because you couldn't understand the claims being made in it is called circular reasoning. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe that the claim is actually silly just because some moderator classified it as such.

 

So you looking to fund a white kid in school? I know one very good one who is starting grad school next year and could use the funds!

[Kriminal99]

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[freeztar]

There's a time for passion and there's a time for cold, hard reason. Confusing the two usually results in unwanted consequences. And what does leadership have to do with anything anyway?

 

Anyhow, back to the subject. It seems that you, Krim, are more concerned about racial/inequality issues resulting from funding foreign students rather than monetary concerns. Is this a fair assessment?

[Kriminal99]

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[Erasmus00]

First, foreign students do not qualify for US government subsidized student loans. Those foreign students who can afford (or take out private loans) for schools in the US generally pay higher tuition then in state residents (at state schools).

 

By the time you apply to graduate school, you are being hired to do research. This is a job, and obviously, the professors in question will take the best students. They need the best students, if they don't publish fast enough, they will be denied tenure (fired).