Presuppositions and Free Will

[Fishteacher73]

If it is the fault of the bank robber then it implies that he used free will. If it is not the fault of the bank robber but the result of determinism, does he deserve to be punished?

 

 

To a degree yes. Although we cannot volitionally choose, we can alter both the specific individual's future path (two ways, A: He is in jail nad con no longer commit such crimes; and B: Having been punish previously, he may alter his future actions to avoid punishment again) as well as other paths of different individuals by them gaining the knlowledge that bank robbers go to jail.

 

While this does not present a moral responsability to the individual, it does for society to "train" it's citizens how to interact by altering their deterministic cvascade by having new imputs into the system.

[C1ay]

he may alter his future actions to avoid punishment again

How can he do that if he has no free will? Are you saying his future actions are a result of his choices?

[Fishteacher73]

No, his future actions are a result of his culminated past. Being caught will alter the causal cascade. If he were not caught, it would be likely that the individual would repeat the actions. I think that profiling is another example of evidence of the lack of free-will. If thought was independeent of causality and repitition, then criminal profiling would have a greater ariance and not be as reliable as it has become.

[C1ay]

No, his future actions are a result of his culminated past.

His culminated past was a result of causal events he had no control over but yet, it is his fault that he robbed the bank OR his culminated past was a result of causal events he had no control over and it is not his fault that he robbed the bank? This does not seem to add up logically. If he had any control in the chain of events then he had free will, if he did not it would seem that treatment would be more appropriate than punishment. Wouldn't fault on his behalf would require free will?

[Dark Mind]

Not necessarily. His faults may have been predetermined (by him), and led up to the bank robbery if he were never caught. This course of action is not un-expected but it does not necessarily show a lack of free will.

[Fishteacher73]

Negative reinforcement is a type of "treatment" (Depending on you POV). The deterring factor adds into other individuals and alters their pathways.

 

The lack of free-will does remove moral obligation, but does not remove one from the effects of ones actions. As I stated earlier in my Santa CLause post, because people believe in free-will, there can be some manipulation. Yet just because people believe in it does not make it so.

[Dark Mind]

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Was it free will or lack thereof that made me do that?

[C1ay]

Negative reinforcement is a type of "treatment" (Depending on you POV). The deterring factor adds into other individuals and alters their pathways.

 

The lack of free-will does remove moral obligation, but does not remove one from the effects of ones actions. As I stated earlier in my Santa CLause post, because people believe in free-will, there can be some manipulation. Yet just because people believe in it does not make it so.

Is it really fair to use negative reinforcement as treatment for an individual for actions he had no control of in the first place? We don't treat the insane this way. Why does he deserve to be used as a deterrent to others anyhow and how does it alter their pathway if they don't have the power to choose a different path as a result of the deterrence?

 

Why is he accountable for the effects of his actions if he had no control over those actions? If the lack of free-will removes moral obligation, why attempt to teach morals in the first place? No one can use their free will to act morally anyhow since they cannot choose to be good or bad. This really implies that we are simply a victim of fate.

[Fishteacher73]

Hoe does one train a dog? A mix of negative and positiove reinforcement. Is it the puppy's fault that it peed on the floor? Did it make a volitional choice to do so? Do you still spank the dog? Yes. does it learn to stop peeing in the floor? Yes

 

People are held accountable for things that they had no control over every day. Perhaps it may seem a bity Machiavellian, but does the end of the "better society" justifies the means. Just because one was "not in control" there are still consequences. (Even today under our legal systems. If you are drunk, you are still accountable for your actions).

[Dark Mind]

I feel so ignored...

[Queso]

was that completely random or did i miss something? :)

[Queso]

oh, i see your post now. well, science says that could have been determined. that was not free will. crazy huh?

[maddog]

Doesn't determinism just negate the whole premise of using punishment as a deterrent for future acts anyhow? I mean if you couldn't choose not to commit the crime in the first place, how is punishment going to keep you from making the same choice to commit a similar crime in the future?

I guess you missed the Movie: Minority Report with Tom Cruise. I guess in that movie they were

more concerned with the Victim than the supposed predictable assailant...

 

Maddog

[maddog]

This is exactly the argument that some philosophers use to suggest that morality is impossible in the absence of free will.

Just because some philosophers use or had such a certain logic currently or in the past does not make it

valid ! Ever heard of Phlogiston Theory or Aether explination of constant speed of Light in a Vacuum ?

 

Maddog

[maddog]

Contemporary Determinists (and there are some on this site) see free will as illusory because they do regard the actions of the mind as similar to Newtonian mechanics.

They will never be able to adapt to a new environment and will someday be "chosen" out of the genepool.

 

Maddog

[maddog]

I think I think therefore I think I am... You seem dead set on declaring me ignorant of QM when I all I assert is that the theory still has some holes in it and this is where the "random" nature arises. Granted I am not a theoretyical physicist, but I have a general understanding of the concepts.

Regarding Philosophy neither side can claim Victory (except you are attempting to the possession of the

opposing side). :) I can tell you are not a theoretical physicist, you don't "think" like one. However

you do misunderstand much about the physical world! There are NO Holes in QM to date, very accurate

at that. There are more questions that have been generated. The "Holes" you are describing are

actually from SM (Standard Model) as Qfwfq has already stated and you Neglected. Random is

the method of working the Heat Equation for Statistical Mechanics (Gases) which can lead to

Turbulence, Stream Flow, Weather, etc. All "macroscopic" theories and structures. I really doubt you do

have a "general understanding of the concepts". Must be or you wouldn't be using weak logic to form

conclusions!

I have not once claimed Newton, you have brought him up more than I.

What you seem to not comprehend (or Ignore) is that Newtonian Mechanics was the basis

for the STUPID THEORY YOU ARE NOW ESPOUSING TO ME AS FACT!!!! FACTS ARE NOT THEORIES

which the pholosphy of Determinism is. It is fine with me for you to believe it. There are a lot of

people here believe in God too (of some sort or another). Just don't try and foist the CRAP on me

as a bonifide Theory of Existance with enough experimental evidence as QM! It doesn't wash.

The only arguments that you have brought up are the "uncertaincty" invovlved with QM, and yet to show how this propogates beyond the quantum realm. The other point you make is that you think you have free-will. That has no merit in a scientific discussion either. Yet somehow it is me that is stuck in pre-historic notions. You might as well accuse me of thinking leaches are good medicine (oh, wait, they do. Modern medicine has realized that both leaches and maggots can be helpful.).

How it propogates above Quantum Realm, see above. Unlike you, I don't claim

Free Will is in existence as FACT since IMO, Free Will lies in the domain of the MIND which I suspect

does actually not Exist "Physically". This is what I WAS SAYING ALL ALONG. You are so dense, you

must have missed that point. Go back and read my posts. The answers are there. :) :) :)

 

Maddog

[maddog]

Hoe does one train a dog? A mix of negative and positiove reinforcement. Is it the puppy's fault that it peed on the floor? Did it make a volitional choice to do so? Do you still spank the dog? Yes. does it learn to stop peeing in the floor? Yes

So by this analogy, your thinking processes are no better than dogs ? You don't seem to speak to

highly of yourself.

People are held accountable for things that they had no control over every day. Perhaps it may seem a bity Machiavellian, but does the end of the "better society" justifies the means. Just because one was "not in control" there are still consequences. (Even today under our legal systems. If you are drunk, you are still accountable for your actions).

So is this a justification to Drink and Drive ? Sorrryyy Ossifer, I'm Drunnk. Soo II'mmm incccapppbble off

my acccttionnns! :)

 

Maddog