Cosmic joke: Hubble's law

[lbiar]

According to the theories of expansion and Big-bang we are the only ones in the universe that can to see the Hubble's law.

 

Why?

 

Because only in the center of a universe and in a spherical expanson can to happens the Hubble's law.

 

References:

 

The Hubble's law relation distance - speed, and also time because distance is time.

 

A expansion how theories say: "equal in all the point" is against Hubble's law, this would be a cubic expansion and in a cubic expansion the diagonal is bigger that sides and by that against Hubble's law.

 

Only in a point without moving and in the center or a sphere in expansion we can see the cosmic microwave background radiation - Arguments « The universe is infinite according to hubble's law, because the cosmic microwave background radiation speed is near light speed and by that if we are moving or far of the centre of the universe we can't see the other side against our position. - Arguments « The universe is infinite - we see objects at 13.7 billion light years and 379,000 years after the Big Bang

 

Is strange and curious that the universe play to this games, against physic laws know, for expand at near light speed equivalent and according to Hubble's law need to expand decreasing (an expansion has not speed and if it's a speed constant equivalent the expansion is decreasing - Arguments « The universe is infinite

 

Only a universe in spherical expansion and we at the centre and without moving is according to Hubble's law.

 

My web send to references link. And it's against expansion of the universe. This is a reasonable doubts, I don’t need to give any proof, who affirm anything is who needs to give proofs and by now there is not any proof neither of the expansion nor Big-bang (Burden of proof).

 

My web (I have put links) is : http://bigbangno.wordpress.com/

 

Thanks.

[Tormod]

I think we read that differently.

 

According to expansion theory, all points in the universe would theoretically see the same expansion as we do, because there is no center.

[lbiar]

I think we read that differently.

 

According to expansion theory, all points in the universe would theoretically see the same expansion as we do, because there is no center.

 

Yes.

 

We don't read diferently. This is 1 of my 21 arguments agains the expansion of the universe.

 

The theory says what you say, but according to Hubble's law (distance-speed and also time) and the cosmic microwave background radiation that expanding near light speed this cannot to be possible.

 

If the expansion is the same in all points and we have moviment we can't to see the cosmic microwave background radiation in all the radius and near the same speed.

 

we see objects at 13.7 billion light years and 379,000 years after the Big Bang - Redshift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The theory say what you say, but it's against to Hubble's law and that we see objects at 13.7 billion light years and 379,000 years after the Big Bang (this objets are of the cosmic microwave background radiation).

 

Also a expansion different to a spherical expansion and where were are in moviment and far or the centre of the universe has problem to complain this.

 

The problem with your answer is that it's against what I say.

 

Thanks for your note.

[modest]

lbiar, I think what is confusing you is that Hubble's law ([math]v=H_0D_0[/math]) refers to the recession speed between two things that exist at the same time. We do not exist at the same time as the surface of last scattering (the dense plasma that emitted the CMB). The stuff that emitted the CMB existed a long time ago. It later became us and other galaxies. The current distance to any other galaxy which the CMB (that we observe today) became is 46 billion lightyears (14,103 megaparsecs). According to Hubble's law the velocity of that galaxy relative to us is,

 

[math]v=H_0 \cdot D_0[/math]

[math]v=70 \cdot 14103[/math]

[math]v=987,210 \ \mbox{km/s} [/math]

 

987,210 km/s > 300,000 km/s (where 300,000 km/s is the speed of light).

 

Therefore the galaxies that the CMB *which we currently observe* eventually became are currently receding from us at greater than the speed of light. We do not see that galaxy as it exists today because it takes light time to get to us. We see the hot dense plasma that the galaxy used to be.

 

~modest

[lbiar]

lbiar, I think what is confusing you is that Hubble's law ([math]v=H_0D_0[/math]) refers to the recession speed between two things that exist at the same time. We do not exist at the same time as the surface of last scattering (the dense plasma that emitted the CMB). The stuff that emitted the CMB existed a long time ago. It later became us and other galaxies. The current distance to any other galaxy which the CMB (that we observe today) became is 46 billion lightyears (14,103 megaparsecs).

~modest

 

I'm according with you, but this light has needed 13.7 billion years (13.7 billions is my note) in arrive to us, and the universe is 14 billions years, by that the relation is 13700379000/13700000000 = 1,000027664 or a difference of 2.76 e-5 with the speed of light. This is almost the speed of light.

 

This and to be according to Hubble's law need that expand near light speed, and by that if we are moving or not in the centre of a spherical universe we can't receive this light, or receive in any radius and not in other radius.

 

By that only in the middle of the a spherical universe and without speed the Hubble's law is correct and we need to stay in this center.

 

Over receding (breaking) I have answer you in the other post, but I write here another time (in resume Hubble's law don't admit change of speed expansion):

 

Hubble's law relations distance-speed and also time (distance with time).

 

So if the radiation of cosmic microwave background go before more quickly that c, later need to brake, if brake means:

 

the the radiation of cosmic microwave background may to see at the average speed but for example if before the 1/2 time of the universe has slow the speed, the stars at 1/2 distance would see at 1/2 of distance but at real speed.. (same if ti was at 1/4, 3/4, ...) - the light that we see of stars at 1/2 of distance is also at 1/2 of time.

 

If this occurs the Hubble's law would be false, because the relation distance-speed don't concordate.

 

So, to be according to Hubble's law (it's a law), the speed need to be constant, and how in a expansion threre is not real speed this is equivalent to a constant speed and by that the expansion is decreasing (a expansion to maintain a equivalent constant speed each unit of space need to expand decreasing).

 

Thanks another time.

[modest]

I'm according with you, but this light has needed 13.7 billion years (13.7 billions is my note) in arrive to us, and the universe is 14 billions years, by that the relation is 13700379000/13700000000 = 1,000027664 or a difference of 2.76 e-5 with the speed of light. This is almost the speed of light.

 

This and to be according to Hubble's law need that expand near light speed, and by that if we are moving or not in the centre of a spherical universe we can't receive this light, or receive in any radius and not in other radius.

 

No.

 

The universe is 13.7 billion years old, but a distance of 13.7 is not the right distance for Hubble's law. 13.7 is the look back time, or light travel time distance.

 

Read:

 

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/Dltt_is_Dumb.html

 

and

 

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo_02.htm

 

under the heading "Many Distances". Really read them.

 

Hubble's law is the *current* velocity between two galaxies as they *currently* exist. The edge of the visible universe is not currently 13.7 billion lightyears in comoving distance. It is 46 billion lightyears.

 

~modest

[lbiar]

No.

 

The universe is 13.7 billion years old, but a distance of 13.7 is not the right distance for Hubble's law. 13.7 is the look back time, or light travel time distance.

 

Read:

 

Light Travel Time Distance

 

and

 

Cosmology Tutorial - Part 2

 

under the heading "Many Distances". Really read them.

 

Hubble's law is the *current* velocity between two galaxies as they *currently* exist. The edge of the visible universe is not currently 13.7 billion lightyears in comoving distance. It is 46 billion lightyears.

 

~modest

 

All this you say I understand, it's a good leson also but this has not relation (I think) with this thread.

 

In this thread I ask how in an universe in expansion we can to see the cosmic microwave background radiation without stay at the center and without moving of a spherical expansion.

 

I know that the background radiation we see at 13.7 billion light years but it came from many near to us in past and space is expanding all this time, and today also is not where we see.

 

But my question is: why the universe give us this very strange image?

 

I forget to add that is also strange that until now we see the cosmic microwave background radiation but not will be visible in future according to your information that the universe is 46 billion lightyears. But until now has to been visible all this first 13.7 billion years.

 

Thanks another time.

[modest]

The cosmic microwave background has been visible to anyone in the universe since it was emitted when the universe was roughly 400,000 years old and it will continue indefinitely being visible in the future (although, it's redshift will make it harder and harder to see).

 

The dense plasma that emitted the CMB filled the young universe. The radiation was emitted from all locations and in all directions. The radiation therefore fills the universe. We see it coming from every direction. Every other observer anywhere else in the universe will see it coming from every direction.

 

For example, the Milky Way used to be (before it was a galaxy) a spot of hot dense plasma. When the universe was 380,000 years old it emitted cosmic microwave background radiation. Today there is a galaxy 46 billion lightyears from us that is seeing that light. They are seeing the CMBR that we emitted before we became a galaxy and we are seeing the CMBR that they emitted before they became a galaxy.

 

~modest

[lbiar]

The cosmic microwave background has been visible to anyone in the universe since it was emitted when the universe was roughly 400,000 years old and it will continue indefinitely being visible in the future (although, it's redshift will make it harder and harder to see).

~modest

 

Sorry I don't believe this.

 

We see the cosmic microwave because that source is from 13.7 billion years, older that any star. We see distance with years.

 

We see the cosmic microwave because that expand near light year speed, how the expansion is accelerating and the comoving distance is 46 billion lightyears (more that lightyears we see) in futur the cosmic microwave would not see (probably in million years).

 

We see the cosmic microwave because because we are without moving in the center of the universe (or any better explanation) because it's around us and if we are moving we cound not see the microwave in any direction: the relation of microwave speed from light speed is only 2.76 e-5 with the speed of light - Arguments « The universe is infinite (remember that in any expansion any body expanding at light speed is not show).

 

And all acording to Hubble's law.

 

 

The dense plasma that emitted the CMB filled the young universe. The radiation was emitted from all locations and in all directions. The radiation therefore fills the universe. We see it coming from every direction. Every other observer anywhere else in the universe will see it coming from every direction.

~modest

 

I'm against this, is the background and older that any star, because we see by the years old of the universe. The background we see later of the stars not into the stars and near the Earth. Far=older.

 

Today there is a galaxy 46 billion lightyears from us that is seeing that light. They are seeing the CMBR that we emitted before we became a galaxy and we are seeing the CMBR that they emitted before they became a galaxy.

 

Ok. by distance-years old.

[modest]

that source is from 13.7 billion years... The background we see later of the stars not into the stars and near the Earth. Far=older.

 

Ok... with the language difficulties it will take some time to explain.

 

Let me ask you, if a flash bulb were in space 10 light-seconds away from earth and it flashed one year ago then would a telescope looking in that direction see the flash today?

 

In other words... today there is the earth and a flash bulb. There is a distance of 10 light-seconds between them. One year before today the bulb flashed just for a second. Would we see that flash today?

 

Yes? No?

 

~modest

[lbiar]

Sorry, maybe a few confused today this:

 

this note is a few strange, probably I would need to arrange it, please say me your opinion.

 

This is after thinking a few more, probably disturb this note that was a joke. (maybe later I change it).

 

I need to say:

 

After thinking in that I understand that the radiation of cosmic microwave background is the past of all, by that how you say always is visible.

 

This probably is not the only one error I make. It's good to learn.

 

Well.

 

By other side I go to into more information over this note (I would have to put in first note):

 

(take off the note of that the radiation of cosmic microwave background only would see in the conditions I say)

 

If the universe expand in all places and in all direction how say the theory there are the problems:

 

1 - the expansion need to be cubic according to the theory, a cubic expansion it's against Hubble's laws, because the diagonal is bigger that the sides (in the plain and in the cube) It's against Hubble's law because although the diagonal have more distance and need to expand at more speed and maybe according to Hubble's law it's not posible that the form is the same that a spherical expasion that is the only that is according to hubble's law. (add point 4).

 

more: cubic expansion is flat, can to be in all sides and axis in same quantity, a spherical is not flat and has a center without moving.

 

more:

 

2 - in a cubic expansion (or equal in all sides) we are also moving (into our cubic for to say in any form) and by that the visual speed is not totally equal in all directions (add point 4). By this the cosmic microwave background and farthest stars is difficult to see all at same speed acording to Hubble's law.

 

3 - In a expansion equal in all sides the speed equivalent would to be constant by the stretch (how theory say) but this is not possible, how I say in point 6.

 

4 - a object that expand at 1/2 of light speed (c/2) we see it at visual equivalente speed of c/2, but if a object expand at light speed we don't see it and by that expand at infinite x c, so the relation visual from a object in expansion grow more quickly when it's near of light speed.

 

So if we have moviment the objects that expand near light speed (the radiation of cosmic microwave background, ...) would to be against Hubble's law. (or not see it).

 

5 - all this need also to thing that the visual is stretch in all the way.

an example: if a segment A-B need 1/2 time to expand 1, and it's a 1/2 distance, in the other 1/2 time to arrive to us that the universe expand double and is stretch

 

6 - paradox : in a expansion how theory say we could not see the objects where we see (expansion constant). (I was forget this point)

 

"we see objects at 13.7 billion light years and 379,000 years after the Big Bang" this means that this object would to be at only near 379,000 light years from us make 13.7 billion years, how in that time the expansion would be many little that light would have receive us for example in 479,000 years more from the emision and by that imposible receive today.

 

in this theory of expansion equal, make t/2 the expansion speed would be 1/2, at t/4 would to be 1/4 and so in time would be.

 

13.7 billion/2 = expansion/2 // 13.7 billion/4=expansion/4

13.7 billion/379,000=13700000000/379000=36147,7572 times less in that time

by this we could not to see the light of that objects where we see theirs.

 

we only can to see theirs if the equivalent speed is near light speed with account of expansion, decelerate expansion and stretch, and all to need the universe to make to be according to Hubble's law and how we see it.

 

So the universe need to expand at equivalent light speed but also consider the stretch and all to give us correct image according to Hubble's law.

[lbiar]

me : "that source is from 13.7 billion years... The background we see later of the stars not into the stars and near the Earth. Far=older."

 

Ok... with the language difficulties it will take some time to explain.

 

 

~modest

 

I info that I understand this in previous post, I learn it.

 

Thanks.

[modest]

After thinking in that I understand that the radiation of cosmic microwave background is the past of all, by that how you say always is visible.

 

That is very good :thumbs_up

 

I info that I understand this in previous post, I learn it.

 

Thanks.

 

You are quite welcome.

 

If the universe expand in all places and in all direction how say the theory there are the problems:

 

1 - the expansion need to be cubic according to the theory, a cubic expansion it's against Hubble's laws, because the diagonal is bigger that the sides (in the plain and in the cube) It's against Hubble's law because although the diagonal have more distance and need to expand at more speed and maybe according to Hubble's law it's not posible that the form is the same that a spherical expasion that is the only that is according to hubble's law. (add point 4).

 

What does "cubic expansion" and "spherical expansion" mean?

 

I suspect you are talking about the shape of space. Images like this are common:

 

 

Is that what you mean? Are you saying that the "universe with positive curvature" is possible with Hubble's law but the "universe with no curvature" is not possible?

 

~modest

[Pyrotex]

I'm not sure he's saying anything intelligible. :thumbs_up

[lbiar]

2 - Hubble's law relation distance-speed by that is according to spherical expansion. (I understand with positive curvature)

 

3 and 6 - the theory expansion (equal in all sides) it make not possible that the objects we see at 13.7 billion light years would to see in that position, because the universe in that time was very little and by that the light would be arrive to us in many more time.

 

For to see that image how we see the universe need to expand all this years near of light-speed, making a relation, make 13.7 billion years this stars would be probably at

379,000 years from us (supposing at universe of near this size and a distance equivalent between us), so their light would to become to us in probably 379,000 years because the expansion speed was many more slowly.

 

To see today this light the universe need expand all this years near light-speed, because in a constant expansion this is half at half time, and if supperate light speed it's not show.

 

if the universe expand less of light speed we would see that light many years ago, probably many billion years.

 

if the space between that light and us would expand more that light speed that light would not see.

 

A equal expansion by unit of size (theory say) is with visual speed exponential and the average cannot to be near of light speed how appear that farther object.

 

4 - means that more near a object travel of light speed more bigger is speed x c, or red-shift in relation at light speed, and by that with our moving the universe in one side and another don't conserve relation of Hubble's law.

[lbiar]

I'm not sure he's saying anything intelligible. :thumbs_up

 

I don't explain very well, I need probably to re-write this.

 

Sorry.

[modest]

I'm sorry, lbiar. I cannot understand post 15. Are you using an online translator like google translator? Es el espanol tu lengua nativa?

 

~modest