E8 Geometry

[FrankM]

Turtle presented some interesting geometric forms in his post, Vesica-piscis-real-sacred-geometry.

 

E8 geometry has some interesting forms based upon straight lines. An animation is provided in the following URL:

 

http://deferentialgeometry.org/anim/e8rotation.mov

 

This animation was referenced in the footnote, page 18, of A. Garrett Lisi's article.

 

[0711.0770] An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything

[Ben]

 

E8 geometry has some interesting forms based upon straight lines.

Please explain why you think so.

 

You will be aware, of course, that [math]E_8[/math] is a simple Lie group, that is, has no non trivial ideals, but "exceptional" in the classification sense, hence the somewhat tongue-in-cheek title of Lisi's paper.

 

So tell us - what precisely do YOU find interesting about this group? I am all ears......

[Turtle]

Please explain why you think so.

 

You will be aware, of course, that [math]E_8[/math] is a simple Lie group, that is, has no non trivial ideals, but "exceptional" in the classification sense, hence the somewhat tongue-in-cheek title of Lisi's paper.

 

So tell us - what precisely do YOU find interesting about this group? I am all ears......

 

jease ben; you always got yer panties in a knot it seams. (topological humor ;)) so yeah; we're all ears to hear what you got to say now that you have the gavel. we have four threads on the topic & i have responded to all of them so don't be shy about addressing me directly with your insults insights.

 

Mathematicians solve E8 structure

 

Surfer dude stuns physicists with theory of everything

 

248-Dimensional Math Problem Solved

 

A Mathematical Solution for Another Dimension

[FrankM]

Please explain why you think so.

 

You will be aware, of course, that [math]E_8[/math] is a simple Lie group, that is, has no non trivial ideals, but "exceptional" in the classification sense, hence the somewhat tongue-in-cheek title of Lisi's paper.

 

So tell us - what precisely do YOU find interesting about this group? I am all ears......

 

Ben, my post was pointing out the interesting geometric forms presented by the thread started by Turtle (Vesica-piscis-real-sacred-geometry) and equally interesting forms created using the animation referenced in Lisi's article. Turtle started out with circles and the E8 diagram uses straight lines. Turtle connected joining points of various circles by straight lines. Equivalently, you can draw circles connecting many of the joining points on the straight lines of the E8 diagram. For example, using the Figure 2 drawing from Lisi's article, you can draw eight concentric circles, with 30 nodes in each circle.

 

Other than that, I think it is interesting that Lisi, and others, consider the structure of matter to follow geometric rules, but that would be another topic.

[Ben]

Well if either of you think that "joining up dots" and thereby deriving pretty pictures has anything at all to do with Lie Theory, or indeed mathematics, then go have your fun.

 

I disagree, but why should you care about that?

 

Look, I am reasonably familiar with Lie groups and their algebras, but I make no claim WHATEVER about my knowledge about [math]E_8[/math]. It is limited to what I said in an earlier post - simple and exceptional.

 

And I have certainly no clue as to why Lisi thinks this is an unifying extension of the Standard Model. If one you guys would care to walk me through this rather difficult subject, I should be grateful, but the devil on my shoulder tells me you won't

[FrankM]

 

Perhaps you should pop over to the sci.physics.research hosted by google to see what they have to say on E8 and then and ask for assistance there.

 

Bertram Kostant on E8 - sci.physics.research | Google Groups

[Ben]

Perhaps you should pop over to the sci.physics.research hosted by google to see what they have to say on E8 and then and ask for assistance there.

 

Bertram Kostant on E8 - sci.physics.research | Google Groups

It will astonish you to learn, perhaps, that I have access to the internet, and have actually heard of Google.

 

So I can "google" all I want, but that is not why I originally came here; which was for DISCUSSION.

 

If you want to enlighten us, in your own words, and in a way that demonstrates that you fully understand what you are talking about, that is why [math]E_8[/math] and its algebra models a "unified theory" (or anything else of interest, for that matter) please do. We would be grateful.

 

Otherwise, I suggest you don't reference subjects of which you have little or no understanding

[Turtle]

Well if either of you think that "joining up dots" and thereby deriving pretty pictures has anything at all to do with Lie Theory, or indeed mathematics, then go have your fun.

 

I disagree, but why should you care about that? ...

 

mainly i care because you're acting like a prick. :shrug: you brought up an old thread for no reason but to insult frank & me & the board. you have added nothing to the topic in the doing either. technically, you're in violation of rule #9 among others.

9. Do not endlessly show us that *your* theory is the *only* truth. And don't follow this up by making people look stupid for pointing out that there are other answers, especially if they provide links and resources. It will get you banned!

Hypography Science Forums - Science forums rules

 

so i'm exercising rules #3 & #7 with this post. i do like dots, i do think they have to do with mathematics, & i do have fun.

[sanctus]

AS AN ADMIN:

 

Ben, Frankm just pointed you to go to that google group, maybe because he does not feel fit enough to make such a walkthrough thread like you often do or for whatever other reason. No reason to get upset. Additionally if someone likes the visual aspect of a theory/geometry/group then let him/her have that fun just as you have more fun (as me too btw ;-)) with the underlying mathematics.

 

Turtle, Ben did not bring this thread up but Frankm did and Ben just seems interested in the underlying mathematics and asked for it.

 

Both Saying ""joining up dots"[...]then go have your fun" and "your are acting like a prick" is the at the same level of rudeness to me. So,just get over it, you are even ;-). And try to understand each other ;-)

[Ben]

mainly i care because you're acting like a prick.

Hmm...where I come from, the word "prick" refers unambiguously to the male generative organ. And yet you upbraid me for my alleged rudeness.

 

We have a word for this, and it is not hypography.

[Turtle]

AS AN ADMIN:

 

 

Turtle, Ben did not bring this thread up but Frankm did and Ben just seems interested in the underlying mathematics and asked for it.

 

i was mistaken about the age of the thread. ;) not so much about ben's contribution. :lol:

 

Hmm...where I come from, the word "prick" refers unambiguously to the male generative organ. And yet you upbraid me for my alleged rudeness

 

where i come from, we have dictionaries.

 

prick - definition of prick by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

7. Vulgar Slang A person regarded as highly unpleasant, especially a male.

 

frank, thanks for reading me. while my vesica piscis flowers resemble that E8 diagram, they are not in & of themselves mathematical structures; only the individual petals represent geometrical relationships. :doh:

[Ben]

Sanctus I had originally intended this as a PM to you, but thought better of it.

 

First, I believe in speaking my mind. If that conflicts with arbitrary forum rules, then tough tits.

 

Second, if I visit a subforum called "Physics & Math" I feel entitled to expect to read some physics or some math. Is this unreasonable?

 

Third, if I open a thread that names an infamous Lie group, I feel entitled to expect to be told a little about this beast; I was not. Without this content, all I have is simply that "Ooooh look, somebody somewhere on the internet posted a picture that I like".

 

Is this physics? Is it math? Someone tell me.

 

And if this incurs a further infarction, so be it.

 

-B-

[sanctus]

Ben, first of all you didn't get any infraction, I don't see the point in it when both involved in the argument would merit one.

 

1) No one is against speaking your mind, as long as it is respectful. Just like in the post above mine where you say what you expect of a physics and maths forum for example.

 

2) No it is not, that is why I think your first post (post #2) was perfectly fine.

 

3) There is the problem, there is no such entitlement in my view although it would be very welcome if there was some. This graphs also come from Group theory so they still belong to this forum even if it is with no mathematics. Frankm and turtle did not feel up to or had time or whatever other reason to present this beast, so they gave some links. I think that should make it belong to physics and maths forum in the stricter sense like you mean.

 

And Graph-theory (don't remember if it is the right term) is a branch of math...

 

Additionally, these forums intend to be also science for everyone so you can not always expect advanced things.

 

About this infraction comment: if you ever get an infraction for telling politely your idea you can ask me or any other staff to reverse it. We are not like that...

[Boerseun]

This thread has been sidetracked from the second post.

 

Please, if there's anything more to add that doesn't have anything to do with E8 Geometry, please take it up in private via PM.

 

This thread might as well be deleted, and Frank should try again.

[Qfwfq]

E8 geometry has some interesting forms based upon straight lines. An animation is provided in the following URL:

 

http://deferentialgeometry.org/anim/e8rotation.mov

Unfortunately the proxy I'm on forbids me from seeing MIME type video/quicktime so I haven't been able to watch the animation. I'm not even sure if I would be quick to install quicktime or if ubuntu already has it or what. Does anyone here know if the animation is available some other way?

 

I think that where the thread got side-tracked was mostly here:

And I have certainly no clue as to why Lisi thinks this is an unifying extension of the Standard Model. If one you guys would care to walk me through this rather difficult subject, I should be grateful, but the devil on my shoulder tells me you won't

because Ben, saying this you seem to assume Frank had promised to walk folks through Lisi's work (or even just the math). He only said the dude mentions that animation, where he's using E8 as a gauge group and discusses that very rotation.

 

Perhaps you could download Lisi's article and check it out, in particular page 18 and the figures on the following two pages. I had a glance though the .pdf version, the math is there.

[Ben]

Et tu, Brute! Sorry folks, on this occasion I make no apologies for my posts.

 

Look, if I start a thread saying, essentially, that Stokes' Theorem is interesting, you might be forgiven for asking me why I think so, and even what the Theorem states if you are not familiar with it.

 

This is entirely the situation here. I have no issue with FrankM other than that he is unable, or unwilling, to answer what I regard a legitimate questions of the sort above.

 

Seemingly none of you agree; so be it......

[sanctus]

AS AN ADMIN:

 

Any post out of topic in this thread from here one will be deleted!!