Random and energy

[HydrogenBond]

This idea came to me the other day. I thought I would share it as a topic for discussion. If we had a six sided dice and throw it, the odds for each side, will have equal probability. This randomness is connected to entropy, with the entropy of randomness being a function of energy. Entropy needs energy.

 

Say we took our dice, and put it on the table with the 1 up. If we do not add any energy, there is zero probability our dice will ever be anything other than one. Without some energy there is no entropy in the dice. If we add a little energy for the entropy of randomness, we might get our dice to shake, but the only number that will appear is 1.

 

If we increase the energy even more, so the the dice can get over the hump and flip 90 degrees, all but the bottom side of the dice has a probability of occurring. We still don't have enough energy for the entropy needed for the full probability of the dice. We need a critical amount of energy, for the full entropy of the dice's randomness. Beyond that critical amount, the entropy is more connected to an extended roll or spin.

 

Instead of our dice say we were mutating genes. To get a fully random probability on the gene, we would also need a critical amount of energy. If the energy available is less than this full amount, the entropy of probability shifts to a subset of the whole.

 

When we talk of probability we assume we are at or beyond the the critical energy to get the entropy associated with a fully random system. The point is to consider the impact on the odds when we use less than the critical energy.

Edited August 17, 2010 by HydrogenBond

[noexpert]

I was taught that the second law of thermodynamics state that the entropy of the universe is ever increasing. As wiki states it, "In a system, a process that occurs will tend to increase the total entropy of the universe." I have never understood this idea since entropy cannot continually increase without ever reaching equilibrium of some sort.

To say that entropy needs energy affirms this in that the law of the conservation of energy/mass says that energy can not be created nor destroyed, only conserved. So, to have an ever increasing entropy, you would have to have an ever increasing amount of energy. Any thoughts or areas where I may be misguided?

[Illiad]

The entropy of the universe is always increasing because more energy are being lost as heat and cannot be recovered. The energy in the universe remains the same, either as 'energy' or mass.

[noexpert]

My question is whether the law implies that the entropy of the universe will always be increasing, but with a limited amount of energy and matter, how can this be? It seems that at some point everything will be at its limit, where everything is as chaotic as it could ever be.

 

The only way that I could understand an ever increasing level of entropy is to have an ever expanding universe. But with the big crunch theory, it seems to say that at some point the entropy will have decreased close to zero. Does this theory simply ignore law #2?

[Illiad]

Check out no 2

http://hypography.com/forums/physics-and-mathematics/23843-question-on-thermodynamics.html

The only way that I could understand an ever increasing level of entropy is to have an ever expanding universe. But with the big crunch theory, it seems to say that at some point the entropy will have decreased close to zero. Does this theory simply ignore law #2?

I read it in a book that even if the universe crunches, the entropy won't decrease to 0. Though I didn't really understood him when he wrote why. Perhaps someone can help me remember the title, it has a blue cover with a cartoon elvis in an astronaut suit on the front page. The book is written to be accessible to non-experts (not your name) on the subject and I thought it was rather good. But it has some crappy chapters describing an 'Omega point universe', an 'Omega number' that supposes to answer every question that mankind will ever ask and humans coming back to life at the near end of the universe in a form of a computer program. lol. I have a feeling that a DoctorDick has heard of it.

[noexpert]

I assume the reason that entropy has never equaled zero in the past because if everything were completely organized, there would be no possibility of ever getting out of that state of big crunch, so for the big bang to have happened implies that there was some choatic event that caused it, that chaos being some level of entropy. As far as never reaching it in the future, I dont know. But if it did, the universe would be stuck in an everlasting phase of ultimate crunch.

[HydrogenBond]

To increase entropy we need a source energy. Since the net entropy of the universe increasing, this simply means a constant source of waste energy in the universe to feed the needs of the increasing entropy. One constant source is the output energy coming for the trillions of stars in the universe. If we only rely on the energy of first events, since this energy is being used up, the second law would state the entropy of the universe is increasing but at a diminishing rate.

 

Getting back to the original topic.

 

The nature of random and probability works under the assumption that we have the critical amount of energy/entropy in the system to achieve full randomization. This topic is about what happens to the odds when we have less than the critical amount of energy/entropy, such that the system is only partially randomized.

 

Let me give another example to make it easier to see where I am heading. We will start with a new deck of cards, where the four suits are stacked on each other, with each suit in numerical order. We take this deck and place it in a card shuffle machine and add enough energy/entropy to fully randomize the deck. The odds for a given hand are defined by probability. This is basic 1.0.

 

In the next scenario, we will add less than the full amount of energy/entropy needed for full randomization, but will still add some entropy/energy. In this case, all we do is cut the deck into two equal halves, with the two halves flipped into each other, once. The result is the top and bottom halves of the deck blend as every other card.

 

f I was to deal this low entropy deck to two players, the odds are almost 1.0 that I will deal both players straight flushes, since every other card will still be in the original sequence. If we compare the odds for getting two straight flushes with the fully randomized deck, to our low entropy randomized deck, the first deck has very low odds. But for the second deck this is almost a sure thing. If we compare odds of getting two of a kind, the randomized deck has good odds, while the low level randomized deck have odds that make this somewhat unlikely.

 

The net effect is by adding just a small amount of entropy, less than full randomization, we can make the unlikely, more likely, and the likely, not happen as planned. As we add more and more energy for entropy, the odds reach a steady state that is more predictable.

[jartsa]

Let's pack into a bag eggs, cups and bricks.

 

Then we start to shake the bag. The first part of the energy of the shaking goes to breaking eggs,

second part goes to breaking cups ... and so on. There is some order in this entropy increasing.