Liberal Conservatism

[Biochemist]

Right, but the term "times of war" is now changing rapidly (or already has changed). Recently, "war" has become a more shadow-y, less cut and dry term. We've been in perpetual "war" for the last 10-15 years, since the first World Trade Center bombing, if you define it like the current administration has. Given the definition they use when implimenting and discussing the Patriot Act (something like "somebody, somewhere, doesn't like us and may do something about it sometime, somewhere"), those powers granted by the Act have the potential to be used ALL the time- appropritate times and non-appropriate times.

Starting a new thread.

[Fishteacher73]

I was discussiong the process of naming wars, conflicts, etc. The War on Terror I (The war to end all terror :) ) is the war aginst al Queda and Osama bin Laden. This is still ongoing. The sepperate and second War on Terror II: The Iraqi War, is essental over with the capture of Sadam (Or at least to quote Bush, "Mission accomplished!").

 

So here we are still in WoT I, but having "won" WoT II. Can this happen, is there a protocall to naming conflicts? Can I get on the comittee? :)

[bumab]

I think the protocol is whatever sounds the best in a soundbyte. You gotta love all the different names national news programs gave it when it first started going. "the war on terror" "the conflict in iraq" "the iraqi war" etc. All with big flags waving behind it :) Inspiring!

 

As for ending the "war on terror," a far better question to ask (or at least more productive) then "Can we kill them all," is "Why are we targets in the first place?" Since it's generally a war of ideas, and not people or geography, we should ask why our "ideas" or "ideals" were attacked in the first place. It's the two principals of war "know thy enemy" and "know thy self" :)

[lindagarrette]

 

So here we are still in WoT I, but having "won" WoT II. Can this happen, is there a protocall to naming conflicts? Can I get on the comittee? :)

It would help to identify types of conflicts by some name other than the War generality. Traditionally, war meant armies (various kinds and sizes of tribes) fighting each other for territory. One side could win and the other side be defeated or surrender. And there are rules. Terrorism isn't even remotely like that. There's no identifiable agent to fight, and no side can win or surrender. It's most unpredictable and for defense, we can only put up barriers. What we should do is determine what causes the coflict and address that issue.

[Fishteacher73]

It really should not be suprising that there are individuals/groups/etc. that are aiming at the US. When you are on top, it is because you are standing on or have climbed over others (Not screaming about how The Good ol' U. S. of A. is #1 with a foam finger that sya, "Bite me, Osama" or anything. Just that the US lifestyle in terms of economy and safety is above about 75% of the rest of the world). There are those that oppose the Western ideals because they are "jealous" but most are groups that have been taken advantage of and used to the personal betterment of the US.

[bumab]

It really should not be suprising that there are individuals/groups/etc. that are aiming at the US. When you are on top, it is because you are standing on or have climbed over others (Not screaming about how The Good ol' U. S. of A. is #1 with a foam finger that sya, "Bite me, Osama" or anything. Just that the US lifestyle in terms of economy and safety is above about 75% of the rest of the world).

 

Sure- I'm not surprised they don't like us, we've screwed over a lot of people. As long as people don't believe the "they hate freedom!" stuff Bush constantly says. But somehow Canada, who was recently put forth as the best country to live in in the world, doesn't have as many enimies. With our conspicuous consumption and foriegn policy, it's no wonder they hate us. I just don't think we can win a battle against an idea, and since that's what we are fighting, we need to see how we can avoid being a target. Unless we think we are justified in our position... I'm not adovcating a "the terrorists were justified position" or anything, but it's worth a little introspection.

 

Perhaps we are simply being targeted because we are the biggest superpower, but I kind of doubt it. At least that's not the reason the terrorists have given.

[Fishteacher73]

Has there really been terrorist actyivity in China? The US is a metaphorical face of greed and godlessness to many.

[Queso]

i really really want to be president. in fact after i'm 34 i'm going to run, just for the hell of it.

[Queso]

vote for me! jason lowe.

[Fishteacher73]

You might split the Jello Biafra vote though..... ;)

[Queso]

it must be my age, because i don't know who jello biafra is! whenever i RUN for president (i really have no intentions to win, just the intentions to run and have a good time with the media) i'm going to be running for a new party. (i have no idea what, and what our policies will be. i have MANY years to think about that stuff! ;) )

[gubba]

G'day Biochemist, Buffy, Fishteacher,

watching the debate unfold between you I'm struck by how much your words reinforce my opinion about the liberal conservatism of mainstream american politics and I reiterate, that while I personally disagree with some of its worldview, it's more a matter of degree than principle. The underlying humaneness is what is so attractive to a repentant old leftist whose greatest idealogical shift has been from a youthful worship of Lenin to an absolute acceptance that Vlad was totally, utterly, wrong.

 

Buffy, about your "social conservatives", I'm certainly not unaware of them, unfortunately their influence is growing downunder as well. I've always felt that they have been very fortunate to get away with their mild label. For such a reactionary, authoritarian bunch to allow them the respectablity implicit in the term "conservative" is to grant them a legitimacy they have no right to. No matter how sincere or, for that matter, manipulative, one does not impose the past upon one's fellows. I feel it is an indictment on the informed populace of, at least, the anglo-saxon nations, that we have failed to de-legitimate the message of the fundamentally undemocratic amongst us.

 

Biochemist, okay so you really have visited "the Athens of the south", mayl-buhhn to your ears. [i love that mediterranean title, so pompously self-annointed by our city fathers a few years ago.] Afraid I am forced to reveal my traitorous heart once more and admit I rarely imbibe our beers nowadays, prefering a decent red or brandy on the few occassions I allow myself to indulge. Have noticed that we seem to be witnessing the burgeoning of ale connoisseurship in our fair town of late. Boutique brewers, intimate little pubs, WOMEN DRINKERS!!!!, gosh, gosh, gosh! all more than a little twee and a world away from the drinking barns and bloodhouses of my youth.

 

I wonder if I may tease a bit? Is there anything remotely republican about the current occcupants of the little white lodge in pennsylvania ave? If I remember my classical history a right, "pax romana" was imposed rather ruthlessly on many an occassion, of course the romans never saw themselves as true democrats either as republicans or as citizens of the empirium. cheers gub.

[Fishteacher73]

it must be my age, because i don't know who jello biafra is! whenever i RUN for president (i really have no intentions to win, just the intentions to run and have a good time with the media) i'm going to be running for a new party. (i have no idea what, and what our policies will be. i have MANY years to think about that stuff! ;) )

Biafra was the lead singer of the Dead Kennedys and founder of Alternative Tenticles Records. Ran for mayor of San Fancisco in the early 80's. SO left that Nader looks like Bush... Was nominated as a candidate for the Green Party in 04, but stepped down.

 

Argues for a MAXIMUM wage limit. One of his points when running for mayor of SF was to pass a bill that required buisnessmen to wear clown suits. Some really intersting ideas, some shock value and a leather jacket. What else could you want for the head of state?

[Queso]

haha that IS very interesting, thanks for the info. i would have loved to see those clown suits, or at least what people did as a loophole around it.

[Fishteacher73]

He did not win, but if I recall, he did garner a modest % of the vote. BTW, he has a large number of spoken word albums that are interesting as well as entertaining.

[Biochemist]

....The underlying humaneness is what is so attractive to a repentant old leftist whose greatest idealogical shift has been from a youthful worship of Lenin to an absolute acceptance that Vlad was totally, utterly, wrong.

I am honored by the complement.

...I'm certainly not unaware of them {social conservatives}, unfortunately their influence is growing downunder as well. I've always felt that they have been very fortunate to get away with their mild label....

It is worth noting that we use this label in two disparate contexts. There is a subset of folks that are reasonably reactionary, exclusionary, conservative and politically active, They are often labeled as the "religious right", but the number of folks in that camp is really pretty small, probably less than 5% of the electorate. Might even be less than 3%. Then there are the folks that are "traditional values". These folks are the majority of the electorate, but are neither politically engaged nor politically enraged. This group, for example, is reasonably opposed to abortion, but is equally strongly opposed to legislation precluding it. This is probably about 60-70% of Republicans, and 40-60% of Democrats. This is the group that Democrats have often angered by taking too strong a pro-choice stance. Clinton was ideal on this group (abortion should be "safe, legal and rare") and few have met his standard for handling the issue as well. This "traditional values" group is not undemocratic, and really does represent the middle of the country. Most of these folks are as irritated by the more extreme social right position as the leftists are.

Afraid I am forced to reveal my traitorous heart once more and admit I rarely imbibe our beers nowadays, prefering a decent red or brandy on the few occassions I allow myself to indulge.

I, frankly have a similar bent. Although I lean a little more toward single malt scotch or a pleasant bourbon than brandy these days. I have to admit, it is mostly because calories matter more in my greying years. In fact, Australian reds are some of the best deals in the US (at least on the West coast). Here is to a nice Australian Shiraz! ;)

[paultrr]

I am honored by the complement.It is worth noting that we use this label in two disparate contexts. There is a subset of folks that are reasonably reactionary, exclusionary, conservative and politically active, They are often labeled as the "religious right", but the number of folks in that camp is really pretty small, probably less than 5% of the electorate. Might even be less than 3%. Then there are the folks that are "traditional values". These folks are the majority of the electorate, but are neither politically engaged nor politically enraged. This group, for example, is reasonably opposed to abortion, but is equally strongly opposed to legislation precluding it. This is probably about 60-70% of Republicans, and 40-60% of Democrats. This is the group that Democrats have often angered by taking too strong a pro-choice stance. Clinton was ideal on this group (abortion should be "safe, legal and rare") and few have met his standard for handling the issue as well. This "traditional values" group is not undemocratic, and really does represent the middle of the country. Most of these folks are as irritated by the more extreme social right position as the leftists are.I, frankly have a similar bent. Although I lean a little more toward single malt scotch or a pleasant bourbon than brandy these days. I have to admit, it is mostly because calories matter more in my greying years. In fact, Australian reds are some of the best deals in the US (at least on the West coast). Here is to a nice Australian Shiraz! :note:

 

I agree totally about where the real majority of this country stands. Its rather a pity that both parties tend to be controled by the extremes in both. My Dad was a moderate democrat. I've always been a moderate republican. My own view on abortion in that while I find abortion in some cases as wrong. I also believe in freedom of choice. I also, while favoring going into Afgan was totally against the whole Iraq thing on many grounds.

 

One thing the Military boys always tend to gloss over with the public is we've been playing for years simulated war games with terrorists groups. We always end up in a case where we seem to win for a bit and then they come back again. Lot of good those war games and simulations really do if we don't learn a few lessons from them along the way. Another thing people tend to forget is we supported and trained this sect to fight the Russians during the old cold war days. They know us a lot more than we think. They ground the Russian Military to a halt at one time under our guidance. If we really want to fight them then fight them the way they fight us and at the same time turn their own people against them would be the way to go.