Chemistry of Paint & Pigments

[Turtle]

Too new to "post links" for you, but here's one you might find interesting --- chemical and other hazards to artists from art materials;

 

.chicagoartistsresource.org/?q=book/print/6056]Health in The Arts Articles

 

You'll have to add the "http-url" stuff.

 

 

Thank you kindly! Welcome to the Forum.

Health%20in%20The%20Arts%20Articles]Health in The Arts Articles

[Turtle]

Ooh, that's a beautiful colour! I can't wait to see it incorporated into your masterpiece, Turtle! :)

 

I love it when a Lady goes Ooh! :beer: At your command M'Lady. :beer:

YouTube - katabatak http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbSp5c82UeI

 

 

PS I can't find any info online yet on what pigments are used in coloring tissue paper; particularly interested in blues. Anybody know? Thanks. :cup: :beer:

[Mercedes Benzene]

PS I can't find any info online yet on what pigments are used in coloring tissue paper; particularly interested in blues. Anybody know? Thanks.

 

Could you perhaps use the cyanotype process? Instead of only exposing certain areas, you could just expose the whole sheet of tissue paper, making the entire thing blue.

 

Cyanotype

[Turtle]

Could you perhaps use the cyanotype process? Instead of only exposing certain areas, you could just expose the whole sheet of tissue paper, making the entire thing blue.

 

Cyanotype

 

What a cool idea! I recall you mentioned Prussian Blue before, but I don't think we covered the photo-reactive aspect. In reading your link, I have to say I don't think tissue paper would stand up to the water rinse required to stop/fix the reaction, however I came up with a scheme that might work.

 

After preparing the solution and treating the substrate (sounds like a stretched canvas would work), the exposure time could be varied by using a series of masks/templates to produce different shades of blue.

:hihi:

 

Do the chemicals Ammonium iron(III)citrate and Potassium ferricyanide have a common source, or does one have to go to a chemical supply house? Thanks for the idea Mr. Benzene. :cup:

[Mercedes Benzene]

Do the chemicals Ammonium iron(III)citrate and Potassium ferricyanide have a common source, or does one have to go to a chemical supply house? Thanks for the idea Mr. Benzene.

 

I buy all my potassium ferricyanide from amazon. K[Fe(CN)6] http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Formulary-Potassium-Ferricyanide-grams/dp/B000B7A214/sr=8-2/qid=1170528137/ref=sr_1_2/104-9212095-4483151?ie=UTF8&s=electronics It's only $7 for 100 grams.

 

You can buy ferric ammonium citate HERE, but it's rather expensive (500 g = $43)

 

I would suggest ebay as your number 1 source for these chemicals. The problem with that is that ebay members often have unreasonable shipping costs. Good luck to you Turtle!

[Turtle]

I buy all my potassium ferricyanide from amazon. K[Fe(CN)6] It's only $7 for 100 grams.

 

You can buy ferric ammonium citate HERE, but it's rather expensive (500 g = $43)

 

I would suggest ebay as your number 1 source for these chemicals. The problem with that is that ebay members often have unreasonable shipping costs. Good luck to you Turtle!

 

Vielen dank! Ich lerne gern. :D

 

Exploring the one link you gave I found they have several formulas and exact instructions for making cyanotypes. You may find the variants using Oxalic Acid and Ammonium Dichromate interesting to try. Here >>> The Cyanotype Process

 

Also on their page they say this about Ferric Ammonium Citrate:

Formula: A complex salt of undetermined structure composed of iron, ammonia, citric acid.

What about the structure is 'undetermined?' :hihi: :cup:

[Mercedes Benzene]

You may find the variants using Oxalic Acid and Ammonium Dichromate interesting to try. Here >>> The Cyanotype Process

Very interesting idea. I didn't realize they had so many different formulas for various things on that website. Hopefully now you have a very easy set of instructions to follow to achieve the cyanotype-ish color that you want!:hihi:

 

What about the structure is 'undetermined?'

Hmm... well the citrate part would be known for sure. The citrate ion is C6H5O7 with a -3 charge.

I can only assume that the ammonium and iron parts are present in varying quantities.

[Turtle]

Very interesting idea. I didn't realize they had so many different formulas for various things on that website. Hopefully now you have a very easy set of instructions to follow to achieve the cyanotype-ish color that you want!:doh:

 

If you do any experimenting with the other formulae please post up your results. How does the color compare, cost of chemicals, etcetera?

 

I am intrigued by this process, but it is a little expensive to get started. Nonetheless, I use to have a darkroom for B&W photography and I see the potential for transferring many of those skills to making cyanotype prints.

 

Another advantage I see is that once I cut a given set of masks I can make as many prints from them as I care to.

 

So, it looks like maybe $60 bucks to buy chemicals enough for about 2 litres of solution, plus the cost of fabric to give this a try. It's definately on my 'to do if I ever get around to it or obsessed by it' list. :doh:

[Mercedes Benzene]

If you do any experimenting with the other formulae please post up your results. How does the color compare, cost of chemicals, etcetera?

Will do! :computerkeys:

 

I am intrigued by this process, but it is a little expensive to get started. Nonetheless, I use to have a darkroom for B&W photography and I see the potential for transferring many of those skills to making cyanotype prints.

Lucky. That has been my main obstacle in producing proper cyanotypes. I've been known to do a few things in a dark bathroom, but the quality isn't that good.

 

 

 

My, oh my. I just realized what I wrote sounds rather dirty.

[Turtle]

Will do!

 

 

Lucky. That has been my main obstacle in producing proper cyanotypes. I've been known to do a few things in a dark bathroom, but the quality isn't that good.

 

My, oh my. I just realized what I wrote sounds rather dirty. :eek_big:

 

Don't worry about; it's a common meme. "Come check out my darkroom and we'll see what develops." :doh:

 

Anyway, I have an experiment for you to try with your next batch of Prussian Blue, and that is to try it out in a pin hole camera :camera:

 

In actuallity, any room that is dark will do and I often set up in a bathroom as well because of the water & drain. Anyway, once you mix your batch keep it in the dark and soak a small piece of water-color paper in it (also in the dark) . Then dry the paper (yes, in the dark) then load it in your pin hole camera( in da dark :hihi: ) . Probably will need a several hour exposure outside, and your image will appear as a negative, but it might be fun to try. Hey, if it works for you I may be more inclined to save up for some chemicals.:)

[Mercedes Benzene]

In actuallity, any room that is dark will do and I often set up in a bathroom as well because of the water & drain. Anyway, once you mix your batch keep it in the dark and soak a small piece of water-color paper in it (also in the dark) . Then dry the paper (yes, in the dark) then load it in your pin hole camera( in da dark ) . Probably will need a several hour exposure outside, and your image will appear as a negative, but it might be fun to try. Hey, if it works for you I may be more inclined to save up for some chemicals.

 

I would love to try this! I just need a few weeks. In my very limited free time, I have to figure out how to best construct the pinhole camera, and then I'll need to determine the proper hole size. After that, I'll borrow a safelight from my uncle and I'll get started.

Thanks for the idea Turtle! and I'll update you on my progress every few days (on this thread, or maybe you want to make another one?)

[Turtle]

....

Thanks for the idea Turtle! and I'll update you on my progress every few days (on this thread, or maybe you want to make another one?)

 

De nada! I think this thread is perfect; my paints are played. :fly: What could be more chemically pigmented than UV-reactive Prussian Blue photography?

 

PS The one article says you can keep the mixture usable for a while by storing it in an amber glass vessel...in the dark. :hyper:

[Mercedes Benzene]

Update on my PinholeCyanotypeMachine:

 

 

-I've started the initial construction phase of the camera box. The designs are laid out. It will be made from a square box with a removable front consisting of a sheet of aluminium, with of course, a pin hole. A lateral slit in the top of the box will allow a lever to move an internal panel back and forth. The treated paper will be placed on the panel, and the lever can be moved to easily adjust the distance between the cyanotype paper and the pinhole (I believe that this is called the "focal point"?) Before "taking" the picture, the whole box will be covered in black electrical tape, and/or plastic, and/or paper.

 

-The aluminium sheet will most likely be created by cutting a piece from a rolled out soda can. To make the sheet as thin as possible, it will be sanded down as much as I can. I may be able to find some other sheet or foil, but I see no need for it if I can make it out of recyclables. :warped:

 

-I've researched some formulas that dictate how wide the hole should be (sub-millimeter), and it turns out the size is dependent upon how far back the paper is from the hole. I figure the hole will be made by a very thin sewing needle. The problem is, I don't know much about sewing. So, when I look at a package of needles, I see numbers, but those numbers don't mean anything.

Does anyone know the conversions for "needle size" and millimeters?

 

-Finally, I'm placing an order for some Ferric Ammonium Citrate tonight, which means I should be able to actually START my experiments in ~1 week.

 

As I get further into construction, I'll post some photos. Perhaps tomorrow.

[Turtle]

Update on my PinholeCyanotypeMachine:

 

-I've researched some formulas that dictate how wide the hole should be (sub-millimeter), and it turns out the size is dependent upon how far back the paper is from the hole. I figure the hole will be made by a very thin sewing needle. The problem is, I don't know much about sewing. So, when I look at a package of needles, I see numbers, but those numbers don't mean anything.

Does anyone know the conversions for "needle size" and millimeters?

 

I found some info on sewing machine needle sizes; nothing yet on a hand needle.

 

...With the development of many different specialized industrial machines in the 20th century, as many as 4,000 different needle systems were developed with each system being made in up to 15 different sizes. Because there was no standardization, it often happened that the same basic needle type had various designations. In May 1953 a metric size designation under the abbreviation NM was introduced to replace the 40 or so different size designations in use at that time. This “Number Metric” indicates the diameter of the needle blade in hundredths of a millimeter measured above the scarf or the short groove, but not at any reinforced part of the blade. A sewing machine needle with a blade diameter of 0.80 mm therefore corresponds to NM 80 and a needle with a blade diameter of 1.30 mm to NM 130.

 

http://www.webofthread.com/Needles.pdf

 

-Finally, I'm placing an order for some Ferric Ammonium Citrate tonight, which means I should be able to actually START my experiments in ~1 week.

 

As I get further into construction, I'll post some photos. Perhaps tomorrow.

 

Sweet! Great stuff dude... :eek_big: I noticed no mention of an ideal temperature for all this, and that makes it already simpler than standard darkroom photography. Fewer chemicals too. :warped: I think I'll check my phone book for a local chemical supply house.:eek_big: :shrug:

[Mercedes Benzene]

Hmmm.... I'm wondering if the material used on the inside of the box would make a difference...

I mean to say, if the inside of the box was a shiny-metallic material, would the results be any different if the "walls" were just cardboard?

 

I think I'll check my phone book for a local chemical supply house.

Let me know what you find. A local chemical supply house would be a good thing for me too, as I often need a lot of chemicals. I just don't know how to find one. Perhaps if you turn up anything, I could give you my ZIP and you could use your mystical searching powers to find one near my home. :warped:

[Turtle]

Hmmm.... I'm wondering if the material used on the inside of the box would make a difference...

I mean to say, if the inside of the box was a shiny-metallic material, would the results be any different if the "walls" were just cardboard?

 

Definately don't want shiny on the inside as the reflections may muddy the image on the paper, and the darker the inside walls, the better. Plain carboard is good if you don't want to mess with the inside surfaces; black paint, black felt, or black construction paper if you do. :warped: :eek_big:

 

PS Nothing yet on the supply house...processing....:shrug:

[Turtle]

Let me know what you find. A local chemical supply house would be a good thing for me too, as I often need a lot of chemicals. I just don't know how to find one. Perhaps if you turn up anything, I could give you my ZIP and you could use your mystical searching powers to find one near my home. :eek_big:

 

OK; here's what I got. I went to the Yellow Pages under 'Chemicals" and started calling the local numbers (I don't have long-distance). I found a place over the river in Portland that has them both in stock in 500gm jars.

Nurnberg/Scientific Distributors

6310 SW Virginia Portland OR

potassium ferricyanide - 500 gms - $56.50 US

ferric ammonium citrate - 500gm - $43.75 US

 

:warped: :shrug: :eek_big: