Could dragons have existed?

[infamous]

If the title to this thread could read: Do dragons exist, I would have to say "absolutely". I've got one for a neighbor!!!!!!

[IMAMONKEY!]

LOL Hey all im back! Its been forever since i last came here. This monkey is now 14, and i htink that the whole thing with dragons is feasible, although i dont find it probable that they existed.

 

Look at it this way. Have any bones of a dragon or dragonlike creature been discovered? I dont think so... And even if they had, its all how you look at it. I could look at a rocket and call it strong, or weak. Either one would be right because in comparison to a smaller rocket it is strong, and compared to a larger rocket it is weak. It is all a matter of perspective. Evolution has turned out some crazy things before. Things beyond our imagination.

 

And since dragon's are not obviously beyond our imagination, then i dont see why evolution could not make such a thing. In the thread someone mentioned gas bladders. NOw this is merely speculation, but if our stomach acid is strong enough to burn through metal, and our stomach lives with it for 100 years, then i think the possibility of two dense bones cracking together to make a spark and a gland full of liquid nitrogen or something is very good. NItrogen is in our feces and urine, and in us, and we breathe it every day, so i dont see why a large reptile with a gland full of nitrogen couldnt make fire...

 

Anyway, thats just my side of it. Its nice to think something like that could have existed, but unfortunately theres no proof.

[Skippy]

It's not that it's biologically impossible- I don't think anyone can claim that. Just EXTREMELY unlikely, since there is no similar body plan in any known organism, alive or extinct. All organisms have a lineage that can be roughly traced through evolutionary time. Dragon's would be a crazy outlier with no decendents or anscestors. Thus, VERY unlikely.

What bird do we have today with teeth? What lizard has feathers? You would probably say that archaeopteryx was a real creature, yet we have no current bird I'm aware of with similar characteristics.

[Erasmus00]

What bird do we have today with teeth? What lizard has feathers? You would probably say that archaeopteryx was a real creature, yet we have no current bird I'm aware of with similar characteristics.

 

Perhaps its because archaeopteryx was one of those intermediate forms you claim don't exist. The exact point is that no lizard today has feathers, and no bird has teeth, but if we believe that birds evolved from lizards, at some point there must have been lizards with feathers and birds with teeth. That such fossils do in fact exist is support for evolution.

-Will

[Skippy]

Hands and feet are analogus terms. We only call them that BECAUSE we walk on only two. If we walked on all 4, they would all be feet. Do bears have 2 hands and 2 feet, or 4 feet? What about squirrls?

 

Our problem with walking on all 4's is pelvic alignment, not anything to do with our hands or feet. You can't get rid of comparative anatomy with insults and disingenuous arguments.

I apologize for any perceived insults... that was not intended. What I meant was if you took a lab practical and identified an ulna as a tibia, or a humerus as a femur you would be wrong.

 

I think it is more than pelvic alignment, in fact as I recall the pigs and cats I disected in college, and the deer I've cleaned at the camp had thier pelvis alligned to their spine just like a human. The main difference was in the tarsals on the hind legs.

[Shapedoctor]

Depending on your definition of a dragon, yes they could have. I play and write fantasy role playing games, and using my definition (heavy flying reptiles with breath weapons) I have good reason to believe they have never existed on this planet.

[nkt]

Ok, I've held off posting in this thread due to the wild way it has been going.

 

Now it's a bit calmer, I'm going to chip in.

 

Yes, dragons could have existed, they could exist right now. But they don't.

 

The gene expressions for a large, powerful "dragon" are probably not there, in any basic animal you choose to mention, and, therefore, there is no way that one could arise as a mutation in a single step. It's just too unlikely.

 

Things such as total mass, power-to-weigh ratio, surface area vs. lifting area, tensile and compressive strength of materials, and so on, would all contrive to limit the size and scope of such an animal. Certainly the probably exotic food requirements, and the sheer amounts of high energy fodder required would be only available to something maintained by humans, at least to begin with.

 

Expression of the third pair of limbs, a subject of major debate, is possible. There are plenty of cases where genetic abnormalities have resulted in an extra limb or two, and sometimes these have even been useful. In animals, they are normally such a burden, and convey no advantage over four legs, so are heavily selected against. In order to get to a winged state, there would need to be an intermediate step involving an advantage to having 6 limbs, and I just don't see that happening outside the insect nation. Once you get big enough that your limbs are powerful and useful, four is both the least and the most you need. Insects expect to lose one or two on occassion as an escape means, or they use them for climbing and enhanced flexible drive.

 

You would need a mammalian structure due to the sheer energy densities required to fly at length, but you would also need a lot of the adaptions seen in birds. Solid bones are too heavy, even we don't have them, and birds have very cleverly structured lightweight bones. Any conceivable dragon would require these too.

 

Humans, by guiding the evolution, could probably manage to create something akin to a dragon without that much work (c.f. making on from scratch!) by taking a vaguely lizard-like mammal and selectively tweaking and breeding with a winged mammal. This would require genetic engineering, though, and would not be easy. To do it as a series of evolutions would take, perhaps, forever.

 

An artificial environment could, perhaps, be made up to "help" guide, but even then, I think you would get speciation. Birds and mammals have different niches - one is great on the ground, one is great in the air. You get exceptions, but bats can't walk well, or see well, and ostriches cannot fly.

 

Dragons as we see them are just too much the general case. By being a bit of both, they cannot be good enough at either.

[Boerseun]

I've also been eyeballing this thread for a while, and here's my pocket-change worth of ramble:

 

I have always held the view that seeing as 'dragons' and the culture of 'dragons' in myths and legends are universal (well, mostly), a case can be made that there is *something* to be said for it. But is the close similarity between the mythical 'dragon' and large dinosaurs (minus the wings, of course) completely accidental? I think ancient people could have stumbled over some seriously weird fossils and tried to make sense of it, hence the dragons in mythology.

[Shapedoctor]

What bird do we have today with teeth? What lizard has feathers? You would probably say that archaeopteryx was a real creature, yet we have no current bird I'm aware of with similar characteristics.

 

The individual features of archaeopteryx can be found in various living vertebrates. There are no vertebrate hexapods, and no fire breathing creatures of any sort.

[nkt]

The individual features of archaeopteryx can be found in various living vertebrates. There are no vertebrate hexapods, and no fire breathing creatures of any sort.

I'll give you the first, but not all of the second.

 

There don't need to be firebreathers, just something close enough that a little corruption works wonders.

 

Something like a gila monster bites you, and you are going to be screaming about the burning for days >> mouth of fire >> fire breathing. Or it could have been a spitting lizard.

 

Also, wings could be explained by the skin hoods of some large lizards. Easy to mistake for a set of flapping wings if you are a panicked peasant.

 

I would suggest that it was something like stories of firebreathing dragons (which were actually large lizards from far away) and the discovery of things like dinosaur skulls and giraffe skulls.

 

People tend to fit what they see to what they know, and, if they don't know, they will twist and lie to cover the lack of knowledge. Nowhere more so than the captain of a ship, or other educated man, who sees something beyond his ken.

[Shapedoctor]

I'll give you the first, but not all of the second.

 

There don't need to be firebreathers, just something close enough that a little corruption works wonders.

 

Something like a gila monster bites you, and you are going to be screaming about the burning for days >> mouth of fire >> fire breathing. Or it could have been a spitting lizard.

 

Also, wings could be explained by the skin hoods of some large lizards. Easy to mistake for a set of flapping wings if you are a panicked peasant.

 

 

I was specifically referring to fire, not acid or venom. The "classic" dragon is a "fire breathing" creature, not a poison spitter. By hexapod, I mean four legs and wings, not four legs and a something that looks like wings.

 

Your statements are valid, I just wanted to point out that we might be approaching this from two different angles.

 

 

I would suggest that it was something like stories of firebreathing dragons (which were actually large lizards from far away) and the discovery of things like dinosaur skulls and giraffe skulls.

 

People tend to fit what they see to what they know, and, if they don't know, they will twist and lie to cover the lack of knowledge. Nowhere more so than the captain of a ship, or other educated man, who sees something beyond his ken.

 

 

I think this is more or less where how dragons came to be.

 

Edit: fixed quotes

[IMAMONKEY!]

Well here's my two cents. Dragon lore exists in many many cultures and various folk lore. Since this "tale" seems to be so wide-spread it would suggest stories spread by travelling merchants, or a widespread population growth of such creatures.

 

The existence of such an animal close to the description of what we call a dragon is quite feasible considering the actul lore dates back 10,000 years or more in chinese, korean, and japanese culture (or so i believe), but the question is did it happen, not how.

 

I personally believe that dragons could have existed and may have at one time interacted with people. They may have just been fairly rare and maybe were so good at evading humans that they were able to avoid anyone from recording their behaviour. or maybe they were so dangerous that noone could study them :D .

 

ANyway thats my view on it, but knowing you guys, you'll probably sway it. :hihi:

 

IMAMONKEY!... signing out :D

[blazer2000x]

"Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook,Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower? Can you put a reed through his nose,Or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he make many supplications to you?Will he speak softly to you? Will he make a covenant with you?Will you take him as a servant forever? Will you play with him as with a bird,Or will you leash him for your maidens? Will your companions make a banquet of him?Will they apportion him among the merchants? Can you fill his skin with harpoons,Or his head with fishing spears? Lay your hand on him;Remember the battle — Never do it again! Indeed, any hope of overcoming him is false;Shall one not be overwhelmed at the sight of him? No one is so fierce that he would dare stir him up.Who then is able to stand against Me? Who has preceded Me, that I should pay him?Everything under heaven is Mine. "I will not conceal his limbs,His mighty power, or his graceful proportions. Who can remove his outer coat?Who can approach him with a double bridle? Who can open the doors of his face,With his terrible teeth all around? His rows of scales are his pride,Shut up tightly as with a seal; One is so near another That no air can come between them; They are joined one to another,They stick together and cannot be parted. His sneezings flash forth light,And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. Out of his mouth go burning lights;Sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke goes out of his nostrils,As from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals,And a flame goes out of his mouth. Strength dwells in his neck,And sorrow dances before him. The folds of his flesh are joined together;They are firm on him and cannot be moved. His heart is as hard as stone,Even as hard as the lower millstone. When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid;Because of his crashings they are beside themselves. Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail;Nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw,And bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee;Slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw;He laughs at the threat of javelins. His undersides are like sharp potsherds;He spreads pointed marks in the mire. He makes the deep boil like a pot;He makes the sea like a pot of ointment. He leaves a shining wake behind him;One would think the deep had white hair. On earth there is nothing like him,Which is made without fear. He beholds every high thing;He is king over all the children of pride."

Job 41:1-34

[blank]

Umm i don't know about you guys but from what i remeber the documentary 'Dragon's world:A fantasy made real' is just showing us that if dragon's were real; what their evolutionary paths would be like. Yeah sure i know it would be awesome if dragon's were real, it's just that we don't have solid evidence showing us that dragon's are real. I'm not a scientist or a biologist and such and such, but to me their could be possibilities that dragons are real, i mean it is such a big world out there and none of us really knows if dragons are real for sures, it's just something to consider. There is so much to learn, hec we are finding knew things everyday.

[Boerseun]

it's just that we don't have solid evidence showing us that dragon's are real.

Well, we do have solid evidence that they aren't real, and never existed.

Things from the mundane (like breathing fire) to simple everyday aeronautical engineering (they needed much greater wings for their bodymass; unlike birds' tails, thin whippy dragon tails won't make usable rudders, etc.) makes a pretty solid argument that whatever might have been mistaken for dragons by the ancients was most likely a misinterpretation of fossils they might have found of animals wholly unknown to them.

 

But you gotta love zombie threads, though...!:)

[Zythryn]

But you gotta love zombie threads, though...!:)

 

Appropriate for Halloween I suppose:D

[Moontanman]

I saw that, it was a spoof! It was advertised for weeks before showing as a spoof, I'm amazed this thread took so long to die without really showing the evidence for real dragons and how the myths and reality merged into what now think of as dragons. The show did address some of this but it was a spoof and wasn't seriously delving into the whole "Here there be dragons" mind set.

 

Travelers tales of crocodiles, spitting cobras, pythons, strange bones, and probably for the people in England during the middle ages a Nile Crocodile that was given to the king as a gift that got loose and terrorized the population, ate peoples livestock and a few people. This one instance probably did more for renewing the idea of dragons than all the European myths put together.

 

When the Spanish explorers got to the new world and found the giant alligators there, they at first described them as dragons and many tall tales were told about them. Fortunately the alligators stayed around to be described by real naturalists and their dragon like characteristics mysteriously :) disappeared.

 

No real dragons, no vertebrate animals with 6 limbs (maybe dragons came from another planet, the same one centaurs came from!) But the myth of dragons does seem to cross oceans and civilizations so some investigation of the idea of dragons might indeed revel something about the human mind.