Aliens Poll

[Zohaar818]

Bulls**t. Crash dummies and weather balloons--all Air Force experiments, and you know it. And the delusions of yellow journalism leading to instances of mass hysteria. Grow up.

 

This has to be the most uninformed and unenlightened post in the thread so far...

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/

The above link is a site which started out [much like you] to totally debunk the myth of UFO's and to silence, what did you call them delusional yellow journalists and mass hysterics?

Frankly, if you are so NOT convinced then why not post your scientific objections..since this is a Science forum and not a chat box for those with just too much time and resentment to handle alone...

Or why not do some backround reading so that at the very least you could render an informed opinion, even if you still remain skeptical.

 

http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/6monthsummary.htm

http://www.ufoarea.com/events_belgium.html

http://www.global-conspiracies.com/aliens.htm

http://www.ob1.com/fyfecow.html

 

Do I expect this to convince you...well frankly, given your mind-set, no..but at the very least they may give you food for thought..or details to debate..or prompt questions we can respond to that might enlighten all of us in attempting to find an answer to.

We don't mind honest skepticism, or even honest criticism..but to post a blanket statement which contributes nothing but bad feeling is something best reserved for the psychiatry/psychology forum..IMO

 

or maybe you should consider a virtual tour of some of the world's great art to help manage that anger...

http://www.marsearthconnection.com/ancientart.html

 

In the meantime we'll take it that you don't believe a word about UFO's...and not because they don't exist, but because to admit they do is too frightening and incompatible a concept for someone with your worldview or religious convictions to consider.

[Zohaar818]

Common guys....there has to be some other life out there...I belive there is both intelligent and other species that would fall into some microbial category. We can't be the only life sustaining planet in the universe. We are just a pin prick in the so called veil of space. To think otherwise would be a complete lack of logic. Whether or not they have visited us is something I like to leave up to the trailer park dwellers. If one drinks enough moonshine who knows what that person sees.

 

http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/6monthsummary.htm

Do any of these individuals fit the 'trailer park dweller' profile ?

Why is it that Americans, with the lowest standard of 'higher' education in the western world, whose high school students consistently underperform in the maths and sciences as compared to their peer groups in Holland, France, Russia, Japan, China..why is it that Americans are among the most virulent of those on the list of UFO skeptics? Or is that a self-answering question?

http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm

[nkt]

Bulls**t. Crash dummies and weather balloons--all Air Force experiments, and you know it. And the delusions of yellow journalism leading to instances of mass hysteria. Grow up.

And I got told off for not quite calling someone an idiot? :rant:

 

Anyone absolutely convinced of the uniqueness of the human race is obviously a city dweller, not someone who has lain on a blanket under a pitch dark sky and just *looked*.

[infamous]

And I got told off for not quite calling someone an idiot? :rant:

 

I'm on your side with this one, that type of language should not be allowed to go unnoticed. How about it moderators, let's not let this slide by without sufficient admonition.

[Harzburgite]

Regretably Buffy, I was unable to find a suitable option, despite the wide range you offered. I kept wanting to insert probablyand perhaps. [My indecision is final.]

This comes closest to what I regret may be the truth:

 

Rare Earth, in the eternal cosmic void

No birth of intellect; brain power never buoyed;

For dearth of chance-required events

Means mirth is only here, on Earth, intense.

[sanctus]

Bulls**t. Crash dummies and weather balloons--all Air Force experiments, and you know it. And the delusions of yellow journalism leading to instances of mass hysteria. Grow up.

 

As some members said already now it becomes official, You are warned, there is no need to insult just because you believe something else.

[spennithorne]

:eek: I want to apologize for the rant. My dog had just thrown up in the house. Even so, sorry...

 

:rant: This is what I should have said---(also posted in the Aliens thread). Here goes...

 

One does have to embrace the fact that after finding ~156 (Jupiter-class) planets orbiting around ~143 stars in the last 10 years, "we" have just in the last month have found a planet only twice Earth's diameter orbiting a fairly (15 lightyears) near-by star. [Google: extrasolar planets]. With the development of further technology, already well-along and funded (!), we will be technically capable of discovering many more Earth-size planets quite soon. Presumably a few percent of these will be in the "temperate zone" in distance away from their star, that is, where water is largely between freezing and boiling.

 

This however, is very different from saying that some sort of civilized being will be living there, even if we found some. For example, the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old. For the first billion years there was essentially no life here, and for 3.5 billion years, there has been no intelligent life to speak of, excepting only the last 5 thousand years or so. Prior to that, any one coming to Earth would have been meeting people who were prehistoric, literally. You can do the math---these 5 thousand years are a very tiny sliver of time out of 3.5 billion; and the probability, the pure chance, of meeting intelligent, let alone civilized beings on our Earth itself, for a visiting species from somewhere else, is extremely small.

 

Now, let's take a look at the probability of civilized intelligent life on some other planet---one has to look at all the Earth-size planets in the "temperate zone" of other stars that haven't and won't ever evolve intelligent life that we could recognize---and unfortunately, that's likely to be a majority of them. And most of all, there's the teensy little problem of travel time. One has to take into account that "nearby" stars are still dozens to a few hundred light-years away---and that's no short hike.

 

Well---where's the positive note?---there IS one! That's when we as a species have solved the travel-time problem (I don't anticipate that'll be any time soon.) And that's that there are ~100 billion stars in our galaxy. The majority are NOT Class-M stars like our sun. Some Class-M stars may have (had or will have) Earth-class planets in their orbital temperate zones. However, the segment of TIME that they will have intelligent life on them may preclude us from finding them, or they from finding us. And the Milky Way galaxy is, after all, some 100 thousand light-years across----we see any star on the other side as it was 100,000 years ago---it may not even exist now. And that's just in our little old average non-descript galaxy....

 

I think humanity will at some point encounter extraterrestrial life, but I think the chances of encountering extrasolar life, particularly intelligent life, are vanishingly small before our species conquers faster-than-light travel. And the chances of that .....??! :rant:

[nkt]

The US Freedom of Information Act is a wonderful thing.

 

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf is quite unreadable, but you can make out a few interesting bits, like the air force pilot, without too much work.

 

Best evidence, however, are these images found on http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.586145,+-116.915330&spn=0.031242,0.044117&t=k&hl=en. :rant: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.586145,+-116.915330&spn=0.031242,0.044117&t=k&hl=en is also quite interesting. Mars Attacks! :rant:

Not really, they are on Earth, near Groom Lake (Area 51) in Nevada!

Why would anyone build such a thing? What unknown intelligences built this? :eek:

[sanctus]

Spennithorne, if you look at how big the universe is which implies that a huge number of earth-like planets exists, then the probability to exists for a planet with intelligent life tends to one as well as a planet with a far more advanced species. So how do you argument that such a species couldn't have visited earth?

[spennithorne]

I'm saying that while it's virtually certain that intelligent life exists or existed somewhere else in the universe, and possibly (perhaps) even elsewhere in this galaxy, it is highly unlikely that we are living at the same time, or that they will (or have) found us.

 

Let's look at it from the point of view of your proposed theoretical hyperintelligent lifeform with near- (to be realistic) lightspeed capability (we'll call them the AF for "alien friends" ;) ), trying to find US ;) ....

 

Most stars are Not stars like our sun, and it is sun-like stars that are by far the most likely to have planets in circular temperate-zone orbits (which they, and we, would be looking for). Moreover, the majority of stars are in binary systems, which would generate gravitational effects that would cause highly eccentric (and unlivable) orbits at best. Some few sun-like stars may have (had or will have) Earth-class planets in their orbital temperate zones in more or less circular orbits, but not many, and scattered in the galaxy. And, the segment of TIME that there is intelligent life on Earth likely precludes AF from finding us, even if they circled back a few times! Remember, 5 thousand out of 4.5 billion years of Earths existence--and that's on this planet, where we pretend to BE the intelligent life...! That's just over 1 per 1,000,000, based on the Time factor alone, even with known (100%) presence of intelligent life they're trying to find.

 

Also, you're taking for granted hyperlightspeed. I think that's a Hollywood dream-state---you have to assume that the laws of physics still apply for real travelers. Moreover, there is NO realistic physics to teleportation, or to getting through a "wormhole" (which is a theoretical idea anyway), and actually being reconstituted or coming out the other "end" in one piece (from molecular gemish), let alone for going where you want, or for getting back (where and when!!).

 

So I think the chances of humanity actually encountering intelligent extrasolar-system life are vanishingly small (unfortunately---believe me, I'd like to be wrong). By the way, it is a virtual certainty (p approaches 1) that a coin flipped over a long enough (deep) time Will yield a single series of 1,000,000 heads sometime during that time. But it hasn't happened in my lifetime, and it won't in yours either. And that probability calculation is for AFs who know that Earth really does have intelligent life, but just don't know When. The probability is radically decreased yet again if they don't know Where to look, and have to take real (deep) Time, in the almost unfathomably vast reaches of real Space, to do their looking.

[Zohaar818]

I'm saying that while it's virtually certain that intelligent life exists or existed somewhere else in the universe, and possibly (perhaps) even elsewhere in this galaxy, it is highly unlikely that we are living at the same time, or that they will (or have) found us.

 

Let's look at it from the point of view of your proposed theoretical hyperintelligent lifeform with near- (to be realistic) lightspeed capability (we'll call them the AF for "alien friends" ;) ), trying to find US ;) ....

 

Most stars are Not stars like our sun, and it is sun-like stars that are by far the most likely to have planets in circular temperate-zone orbits (which they, and we, would be looking for). Moreover, the majority of stars are in binary systems, which would generate gravitational effects that would cause highly eccentric (and unlivable) orbits at best. Some few sun-like stars may have (had or will have) Earth-class planets in their orbital temperate zones in more or less circular orbits, but not many, and scattered in the galaxy. And, the segment of TIME that there is intelligent life on Earth likely precludes AF from finding us, even if they circled back a few times! Remember, 5 thousand out of 4.5 billion years of Earths existence--and that's on this planet, where we pretend to BE the intelligent life...! That's just over 1 per 1,000,000, based on the Time factor alone, even with known (100%) presence of intelligent life they're trying to find.

 

Also, you're taking for granted hyperlightspeed. I think that's a Hollywood dream-state---you have to assume that the laws of physics still apply for real travelers. Moreover, there is NO realistic physics to teleportation, or to getting through a "wormhole" (which is a theoretical idea anyway), and actually being reconstituted or coming out the other "end" in one piece (from molecular gemish), let alone for going where you want, or for getting back (where and when!!).

 

So I think the chances of humanity actually encountering intelligent extrasolar-system life are vanishingly small (unfortunately---believe me, I'd like to be wrong). By the way, it is a virtual certainty (p approaches 1) that a coin flipped over a long enough (deep) time Will yield a single series of 1,000,000 heads sometime during that time. But it hasn't happened in my lifetime, and it won't in yours either. And that probability calculation is for AFs who know that Earth really does have intelligent life, but just don't know When. The probability is radically decreased yet again if they don't know Where to look, and have to take real (deep) Time, in the almost unfathomably vast reaches of real Space, to do their looking.

 

Which does nothing to explain UFO's, and relies entirely on theories which do not account for parallel universes, and restrict themselves to discussions of distance as caluclated by the time it takes to travel from point A to point B at light speed..note that the theories which allow for UFO's to exist are more about travelling from point A to parallel point A [not B] and are not about linear progression through a vacuum to some distant star, but slipping out of time and slipping out of this quantum dimension into a sub-quantum or exo-quantum parallel where time is not a constant and thus not a factor of distance or light speed.

Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening all at once.

 

What theory if any do you posit that accounts for the observed phenomena of UFO's which defy 'earthly' explanation?

Curious..most curious

 

-Zohaar

[sanctus]

ANd spennithoren doens't general relativity predict the existence of wormholes? And so far GR has only shown to be right or not complete, but not wrong...

 

And even if it were wrong, that wouldn't prove the non-existence of such structures, how can you prove they don't exist?

[spennithorne]

..... rely entirely on theories which do not account for parallel universes....

 

note that the theories which allow for UFO's to exist are more about travelling from point A to parallel point A [not B], ...slipping out of time and slipping out of this quantum dimension into a sub-quantum or exo-quantum parallel where time is not a constant and thus not a factor of distance or light speed...

 

What theory if any do you posit that accounts for the observed phenomena of UFO's which defy 'earthly' explanation?

 

Let's see, obviously I'd have to rely on theories that account for parallel universes, travel to parallel points (in those parallel universes), slipping out of time, slipping out of "this quantum dimension" into a "sub-quantum or exoquantum parallel" where time is not a constant....

 

Of course! Why didn't I think of that??! ;)

[spennithorne]

ANd spennithoren doens't general relativity predict the existence of wormholes? And so far GR has only shown to be right or not complete, but not wrong...

 

And even if it were wrong, that wouldn't prove the non-existence of such structures, how can you prove they don't exist?

 

I believe the existence of wormholes can be abstracted from GR as a possibility. That's different from positive prediction. [For example, relativity predicted the slight bending of sunlight around Mercury and the precession of its orbit, and has more recently been proven out in the phenomenon of gravitational lensing of starlight---all testable predictions.] I happen to think wormholes may well exist (note: I said they were theoretical, ie, in theory, not nonexistent---and that's true---the idea resides currently in the realm of theory, as we have no actual evidence). The problem I posit is that getting through one and "out the other side" intact is a whole different matter--and one that is critical for travelers. ;)

[Harzburgite]

What theory if any do you posit that accounts for the observed phenomena of UFO's which defy 'earthly' explanation?

Curious..most curious

Which ones would those be then?

Skeptical...most skeptical.

[Zohaar818]

Which ones would those be then?

Skeptical...most skeptical.

 

So, you didn't clcik the links..eh? Did you visit the site about the belgian UFO controversy in 1989-1990..and see the radr read-outs, or the transcript of the news conference called by the Belgian Air Force?

Are you aware that the Brazilian, Belgian, Chilean, Peruvian, Mexican, Indian and Chinese military have all come out and stated for the record that they are totally convinced that UFO's exists and cannot have earthly origin?...that the Russains agree..and so do the Dutch and other NATO allies....that there are literally thousands of unexplained and unexplainable sightings now on record as verified by police and military officials.

If mainstream media in the US refuses to cover such stories it is not because the stories are untrue..but that publishing them would create public outcry for explanation and they simply won't get one from their leaders.

Instead most content is left for the internet which everyone knows is a huge source of disinformation ..the medium is the message..right..so if it's on-line it's less credible than Fox channel or CNN..[yeah-right]

 

Sometimes I wonder where the line of skepticism is crossed and it becomes more a matter of I refuse to believe that things are true which would upset me

-Zohaar

[Harzburgite]

Nor is eyewitness [sworn] testimony from those Americans we select to guard our national frontiers enough to sway them..:

http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/6monthsummary.htm

Testimony that I have to pay $70 to gain access to. Hmmm.

Let's examine a summary taken at random. I'll walk you through why it makes me uneasy.

 

Lt. Colonel Wojtecki spent 20 years in the Air Force and retired in

1988. He spent most of his time with Strategic Air Command and Tactical

Air Command. He tells of a night in April of 1969 while stationed at

Loring AFB in Maine when he and his flight instructor both saw three

very bright lights in a perfect equilateral triangle silently moving

across the sky. They estimated that this UFO was lower than 3,000 feet.

He discovered the next morning when he reported for duty that for six

hours, a UFO was seen hovering over a group of B-52's containing nuclear

weapons. Every time a plane drew near to the lights, they would part

and move in ways that were very unconventional. When the planes left,

the lights came together again and focused on the group of B-52's. Many

years later Lt. Col. Wojtecki attended a lecture given by SG and saw a

photograph of a UFO that was the exact configuration that he had seen

years earlier.

1. He had been in the airforce for one year or less. He was on a training mission. I ask myself where is the bulk of the attention of a rookie pilot on a training flight focused? On flying his craft or careful examination of some lights that do not constitute a danger.

2. A perfect equilateral triangle . How bizarre. The only way they could see that the pattern was a perfect equilateral triangle is if they were immediately above or below, otherwise perspective would distort the shape. It seems that the colonel was interpreting what he saw from the outset.

3. silently moving across the sky. Give me a break. He is inside an aircraft, jet or prop, but noisy either way, probably with a headset on, and he can tell these distant lights are silently moving across the sky. For this canard alone I should ignore the rest of the testimony.

4. The next part, about the B52s, isn't even eyewitness testimony, but hearsay. Quick scenario: rookie pilot sees UFO; other pilots wind him up 'yeah, must have been the same one that tailed Chuck's flight.'

5.hovering over a group of B-52's Hovering over planes doing around 500mph. How do you manage that then? Following them, while positioned above, yes. Hovering, no. But you see UFOs have to hover, and silently move, and form perfect geometrical shapes.

6.

Many years later Lt. Col. Wojtecki attended a lecture given by SG and saw a photograph of a UFO that was the exact configuration that he had seen years earlier. Stop press. Triangle appears in photograph.

 

Really, if this is typical of the evidence I am astounded you give it even a moment's credence.