Life On Earths Moon Theory

[cyclonebuster]

What you think possible or impossible?

 

http://www.space.com/common/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27767

[Don Blazys]

Well, if that article is accurate, then of course it must be possible

that there can exist some kind of microbial life on the moon.

 

However, at this point, we still have insufficient data to know for sure,

so all we can really do is guess.

 

In any case, water in sufficient quantities would be yet another

very good reason to establish a base or two up there!

 

Don

[cyclonebuster]

I was thinking in an area on the moon where the sun shines part of the time but not all of the time where the water is always liquid and surface tension holds it there below the regoltih. Are there any such craters in this description?

[Moontanman]

I was thinking in an area on the moon where the sun shines part of the time but not all of the time where the water is always liquid and surface tension holds it there below the regoltih. Are there any such craters in this description?

 

 

I would have to say no, for water to be liquid on the moon would require it to be far deeper than the surface regolith and it would be out gassing regularly and we see no evidence of this. Thomas Gold proposed the idea of a deep hot biosphere existing on ten bodies in our own solar system, 5 of them are moons but not Earths moon. Earths moon shows little or no signs of water deep inside, no out gassing of steam. If the collision scenario of the Moons formation is true this would be the expected result, a dry world with no internal water to speak of. Ice frozen in dark craters would not be conductive to life. Now if the idea of a dry Moon interior is mistaken it might be possible for there to be a deep hot biosphere on the moon but it would be many miles down at least.

 

See Gold's book "The Deep Hot Biosphere"

[cyclonebuster]

I would have to say no, for water to be liquid on the moon would require it to be far deeper than the surface regolith and it would be out gassing regularly and we see no evidence of this. Thomas Gold proposed the idea of a deep hot biosphere existing on ten bodies in our own solar system, 5 of them are moons but not Earths moon. Earths moon shows little or no signs of water deep inside, no out gassing of steam. If the collision scenario of the Moons formation is true this would be the expected result, a dry world with no internal water to speak of. Ice frozen in dark craters would not be conductive to life. Now if the idea of a dry Moon interior is mistaken it might be possible for there to be a deep hot biosphere on the moon but it would be many miles down at least.

 

See Gold's book "The Deep Hot Biosphere"

 

If there is ice below the surface then there is liquid water somewhere else below the surface. Surface tension will hold it there and prevent it from escaping.

[HydrogenBond]

Water can be in a hydrated state, chemically attached to certain minerals and not subject to easy evaporation. With enough heat this water can be released. For example, desiccating stones can be used to remove water even from 95% alcohol and water. The water will become bound chemically, but can be made to detach by heating the desiccant. A surface impact could release hydrated water.

 

There is also a state of water called critical water, which is water above its critical point. This would require high temperature and high pressure, with the mineral dissolving properties of the water (function of T and P) causing the water to follow the gradient toward higher temperature and higher temperature. There could be critical water deep in the moon. As the moon's interior cools, the water will lose the original temp/pressure gradients, such that the water will phase separate out and could work its way back to the surface.

 

I

[cyclonebuster]

Water can be in a hydrated state, chemically attached to certain minerals and not subject to easy evaporation. With enough heat this water can be released. For example, desiccating stones can be used to remove water even from 95% alcohol and water. The water will become bound chemically, but can be made to detach by heating the desiccant. A surface impact could release hydrated water.

 

There is also a state of water called critical water, which is water above its critical point. This would require high temperature and high pressure, with the mineral dissolving properties of the water (function of T and P) causing the water to follow the gradient toward higher temperature and higher temperature. There could be critical water deep in the moon. As the moon's interior cools, the water will lose the original temp/pressure gradients, such that the water will phase separate out and could work its way back to the surface.

 

I

 

Correct if you drill down into the desert you can hit water! Why would the moon be any different?

[Moontanman]

Correct if you drill down into the desert you can hit water! Why would the moon be any different?

 

 

Ummm... because the Moon is different from the Earth? Because the Moon has no atmosphere? Because the Moon was formed from an energetic collision that boiled off all the volatile compounds? Because the Moon does not have enough gravity to hold onto volatile elements and compounds? There are many reasons why we do not expect to see a underground water table on the Moon, very little to suggest there is one.

 

I'll be the first to say that where ever the conditions are correct life will form but I see no reason to think the Moon is one of those places...

[cyclonebuster]

Ummm... because the Moon is different from the Earth? Because the Moon has no atmosphere? Because the Moon was formed from an energetic collision that boiled off all the volatile compounds? Because the Moon does not have enough gravity to hold onto volatile elements and compounds? There are many reasons why we do not expect to see a underground water table on the Moon, very little to suggest there is one.

 

I'll be the first to say that where ever the conditions are correct life will form but I see no reason to think the Moon is one of those places...

Who needs gravity when you have surface tension? Ever hear of it?

[Moontanman]

Who needs gravity when you have surface tension? Ever hear of it?

 

The surface tension of water is not high enough for it to work in a vacuum and what does this have to do with the moon retaining water? Show me some evidence of out gassing of water from the Moon and I'll entertain the idea of a deep water table, so far the only water seems to be surface ice in deep craters where the sun doesn't shine... ever... This water is most probably from comet impacts, not frozen ground water then you run into the problem with the moon having no organic material at all. Samples brought back by Apollo contained almost no organic material, a brand new iron nail from the Earth contains more organic material that the surface material of the moon.

[cyclonebuster]

The surface tension of water is not high enough for it to work in a vacuum and what does this have to do with the moon retaining water? Show me some evidence of out gassing of water from the Moon and I'll entertain the idea of a deep water table, so far the only water seems to be surface ice in deep craters where the sun doesn't shine... ever... This water is most probably from comet impacts, not frozen ground water then you run into the problem with the moon having no organic material at all. Samples brought back by Apollo contained almost no organic material, a brand new iron nail from the Earth contains more organic material that the surface material of the moon.

 

Out gassing of water ice occurs on the moon as the ice evaporates. BTW Earths deserts hold plenty of water underground due to surface tension and gravity, why would this be any different on the moon with similar forces involved? There could be plenty of water underground left over on the moon with all those water ice comet impacts from the past.

[cyclonebuster]

Here is a question for you to ponder? What is the temperature of the moons regolith 100 feet below the surface both at the poles and where the sun shines near the equator/horizon?

[Moontanman]

Out gassing of water ice occurs on the moon as the ice evaporates.

 

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

 

BTW Earths deserts hold plenty of water underground due to surface tension and gravity, why would this be any different on the moon with similar forces involved?

 

Ummm, the moon has no atmosphere to allow the water be liquid so it could drain under ground?

 

There could be plenty of water underground left over on the moon with all those water ice comet impacts from the past.

 

 

Why would comet impact water be under ground on the moon?

[Moontanman]

Here is a question for you to ponder? What is the temperature of the moons regolith 100 feet below the surface both at the poles and where the sun shines near the equator/horizon?

 

 

Why is the temperature 100 feet below the surface significant?

[cyclonebuster]

Why is the temperature 100 feet below the surface significant?

If it is warm it changes from ice to water.

[Boerseun]

The mere fact that there is no atmosphere, makes liquid water impossible. It will boil away into the vacuum of space. Apart from that, the moon is a cold place. Whatever water there will be, will be in ice form. And that ice will have been trapped for billions of years in craters which never see the sun, or underground even. And for life to exist, there must be some sort of energy input - be it chemical, or from sunlight. Logic tells me that if the ice have been buried for billions of years, some sort of a chemical balance must have been reached which won't leave any available energy for life to live off from. And if the ice was exposed to sunlight, life would have either a) fried in the heavy UV the surface of the moon is exposed to or B) died from the ice having been blown away by sunlight. So, the ice must be out of the sunlight which will make chemical energy the only option, which would have reached a balance long ago, leaving zero energy available to life.

 

So don't get your hopes up. Book a ticket to Europa, or even Io, rather.

[cyclonebuster]

The mere fact that there is no atmosphere, makes liquid water impossible. It will boil away into the vacuum of space. Apart from that, the moon is a cold place. Whatever water there will be, will be in ice form. And that ice will have been trapped for billions of years in craters which never see the sun, or underground even. And for life to exist, there must be some sort of energy input - be it chemical, or from sunlight. Logic tells me that if the ice have been buried for billions of years, some sort of a chemical balance must have been reached which won't leave any available energy for life to live off from. And if the ice was exposed to sunlight, life would have either a) fried in the heavy UV the surface of the moon is exposed to or B) died from the ice having been blown away by sunlight. So, the ice must be out of the sunlight which will make chemical energy the only option, which would have reached a balance long ago, leaving zero energy available to life.

 

So don't get your hopes up. Book a ticket to Europa, or even Io, rather.

 

What about the suns energy heating the regolith up below the surface. I am sure the surface gets pretty hot around 250 degrees. That has to penetrate down to some depth? Does the vacuum change the deeper you down into the regolith?