Boerseun Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 What about the suns energy heating the regolith up below the surface. I am sure the surface gets pretty hot around 250 degrees. That has to penetrate down to some depth? Does the vacuum change the deeper you down into the regolith?Seismic tests have shown that the moon is solid, in other words, the energy required to have a molten interior (Earth-style) has long since been lost. The only place it can go is to be radiated to space. Energy flow tests on Earth indicates that only the top fifty meters or so of the crust is influenced in any way by energy coming from above (the Sun). Below fifty meters, more energy comes from the interior than from any external source. And the deeper you go, the warmer it gets - because of Earth's molten interior. There's a couple of things we can infer from the above. First, with the moon having a solid interior, we should expect it to get colder below fifty meters, not warmer. There is no energy source in the interior to raise temperature with depth. Not even tidal stress can raise temperature on the moon, because the moon is tidally locked to Earth - it's always showing the same face towards Earth. The moon's interior is cold. With moon days being much longer than Earth days, you would expect the depth of the moon's surface being influenced by the sun to be much deeper than the mere fifty meters on Earth. Which is all very fine and swell until you keep in mind that the Moon nights are much, much longer than Earth nights - which would negate the importance of that. Let's say the depth on the Moon warmed by the sun to the point of liquid water is three hundred meters. Hell - let's say it's a thousand meters. In order for liquid water not to boil away, an atmosphere is required. And there is no mechanism known on the moon or any other heavenly body that will hermetically seal off an atmosphere existing a thousand meters under the surface. If there was an atmosphere in the rock at such a shallow depth, it would have shown itself. No doubt about that. And how would the atmospheric pressure be so high in such a shallow depth to allow liquid water, in any case? The atmosphere on Earth requires about a hundred kilometers in depth to allow liquid water - and that's tied with a much higher gravity, too. So, all in all, I don't see much hope for your hypothesis in any way. Quote
cyclonebuster Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Posted January 21, 2011 Seismic tests have shown that the moon is solid, in other words, the energy required to have a molten interior (Earth-style) has long since been lost. The only place it can go is to be radiated to space. Energy flow tests on Earth indicates that only the top fifty meters or so of the crust is influenced in any way by energy coming from above (the Sun). Below fifty meters, more energy comes from the interior than from any external source. And the deeper you go, the warmer it gets - because of Earth's molten interior. There's a couple of things we can infer from the above. First, with the moon having a solid interior, we should expect it to get colder below fifty meters, not warmer. There is no energy source in the interior to raise temperature with depth. Not even tidal stress can raise temperature on the moon, because the moon is tidally locked to Earth - it's always showing the same face towards Earth. The moon's interior is cold. With moon days being much longer than Earth days, you would expect the depth of the moon's surface being influenced by the sun to be much deeper than the mere fifty meters on Earth. Which is all very fine and swell until you keep in mind that the Moon nights are much, much longer than Earth nights - which would negate the importance of that. Let's say the depth on the Moon warmed by the sun to the point of liquid water is three hundred meters. Hell - let's say it's a thousand meters. In order for liquid water not to boil away, an atmosphere is required. And there is no mechanism known on the moon or any other heavenly body that will hermetically seal off an atmosphere existing a thousand meters under the surface. If there was an atmosphere in the rock at such a shallow depth, it would have shown itself. No doubt about that. And how would the atmospheric pressure be so high in such a shallow depth to allow liquid water, in any case? The atmosphere on Earth requires about a hundred kilometers in depth to allow liquid water - and that's tied with a much higher gravity, too. So, all in all, I don't see much hope for your hypothesis in any way. Perhaps the regolith is its atmosphere? Who says an atmosphere has to be a gas? What would atmospheric pressure be a few tens of meters below the surface if we measured it? Quote
Qfwfq Posted January 21, 2011 Report Posted January 21, 2011 Perhaps the regolith is its atmosphere? Who says an atmosphere has to be a gas? What would atmospheric pressure be a few tens of meters below the surface if we measured it?In a fluid, pressure is a simple matter, a single value. Not so in a solid, mechanical stress can't always be so simply summed up. Now, try compressing water between two stones; pick them off the bed of the pond and squeeze them together. It can't raise the pressure of water that isn't perfectly trapped between them. If water isn't inside a sealed rock on the moon, it can't be in a fluid state and remain there for much time. You won't find it between the stones, pebbles and grains of sand or dust due to the weight of these, it would have to be very tightly bound to last all this time. A mud would dry up soon enough. Only ice can remain for a while. Quote
cyclonebuster Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Posted January 21, 2011 In a fluid, pressure is a simple matter, a single value. Not so in a solid, mechanical stress can't always be so simply summed up. Now, try compressing water between two stones; pick them off the bed of the pond and squeeze them together. It can't raise the pressure of water that isn't perfectly trapped between them. If water isn't inside a sealed rock on the moon, it can't be in a fluid state and remain there for much time. You won't find it between the stones, pebbles and grains of sand or dust due to the weight of these, it would have to be very tightly bound to last all this time. A mud would dry up soon enough. Only ice can remain for a while. How about volcanic glass or below the ice or below frozen mud? Quote
Moontanman Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 How about volcanic glass or below the ice or below frozen mud? How about an atmosphere of 150 psi, oceans and rivers, how about people flying with strap on wings.... or how about reality, I'd have to say life (our type anyway) on the moon is impossible. Deep inside the moon it seems just as unlikely, I see no mechanism to deliver water to the deep layers of the moon, I see no reason to think the moon had water when it was formed due to the circumstances of that birth. I'll give you the possibility of a very deep "warm" moon but the lack of water and other volatile elements are going to be a problem for any organisms to form from. Quote
cyclonebuster Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Posted January 22, 2011 How about an atmosphere of 150 psi, oceans and rivers, how about people flying with strap on wings.... or how about reality, I'd have to say life (our type anyway) on the moon is impossible. Deep inside the moon it seems just as unlikely, I see no mechanism to deliver water to the deep layers of the moon, I see no reason to think the moon had water when it was formed due to the circumstances of that birth. I'll give you the possibility of a very deep "warm" moon but the lack of water and other volatile elements are going to be a problem for any organisms to form from. Well ice is there so isn't that also water? Quote
Moontanman Posted January 22, 2011 Report Posted January 22, 2011 Well ice is there so isn't that also water? No, ice is not there, ice is on the surface in limited locations not deep inside the moon... Quote
cyclonebuster Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Posted January 22, 2011 No, ice is not there, ice is on the surface in limited locations not deep inside the moon... Prove it! Quote
Qfwfq Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 How about volcanic glass or below the ice or below frozen mud?Which is to say the case of water being totally trapped in a fluid state. In this case what do you envision as the long term source of useful energy? Quote
cyclonebuster Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Posted January 24, 2011 Which is to say the case of water being totally trapped in a fluid state. In this case what do you envision as the long term source of useful energy? The sun. Quote
Moontanman Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 The sun. Ok, how is sun light going to penetrate hundreds of feet of regolith much less penetrate into a water bubble inside an opaque piece of obsidian? If you solve that how does the chemicals for life transfer through the boundary of the volcanic glass? Quote
cyclonebuster Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Posted January 24, 2011 Ok, how is sun light going to penetrate hundreds of feet of regolith much less penetrate into a water bubble inside an opaque piece of obsidian? If you solve that how does the chemicals for life transfer through the boundary of the volcanic glass? Why does it have to be hundreds of feet of regolith? Why can't it be a few feet of obsidian? Do we know what all the chemicals for life are? Can panspermia penetrate that volcanic glass and transfer life under it over billions of years? Quote
modest Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Sorry for jumping in out of turn. Why does it have to be hundreds of feet of regolith? Why can't it be a few feet of obsidian? I think you answered your own question earlier: Why is the temperature 100 feet below the surface significant?If it is warm it changes from ice to water. Just a few centimeters below the surface, the moon is quite cold and there is no pressure to speak of. Water needs pressure and temperature to be liquid. Below a certain pressure, liquid water is impossible at any temperature and below a certain temperature you need very high pressure to have liquid water. An artesian aquifer would have to be pretty deep to have liquid water in it. ~modest Quote
cyclonebuster Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Posted January 25, 2011 Sorry for jumping in out of turn. I think you answered your own question earlier: Just a few centimeters below the surface, the moon is quite cold and there is no pressure to speak of. Water needs pressure and temperature to be liquid. Below a certain pressure, liquid water is impossible at any temperature and below a certain temperature you need very high pressure to have liquid water. An artesian aquifer would have to be pretty deep to have liquid water in it. ~modest How deep would that have to be on the moon? 6 times deeper than on Earth? Quote
modest Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 How deep would that have to be on the moon? 6 times deeper than on Earth? On earth the temp and pressure needed for liquid water exist above ground. On the moon, you'd need a temp of about 0 Celsius (273 Kelvin) which, according to Apollo borehole measurements: http://education.ksc.nasa.gov/esmdspacegrant/LunarRegolithExcavatorCourse/Chapter7.htm looks like you'd find at around 20 meters underground (somewhere between 15 and 25 as I'm not being exact). You can get the pressure at that depth by multiplying the depth in meters by 3,000 then by 1.6. It is 96000 Newtons per meter squared or 0.95 standard atmospheres at 20 meters. In other words, pressure and temp needed to keep water liquid should be found about 20 meters below the surface of the moon. ~modest Quote
cyclonebuster Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Posted January 25, 2011 On earth the temp and pressure needed for liquid water exist above ground. On the moon, you'd need a temp of about 0 Celsius (273 Kelvin) which, according to Apollo borehole measurements: http://education.ksc.nasa.gov/esmdspacegrant/LunarRegolithExcavatorCourse/Chapter7.htm looks like you'd find at around 20 meters underground (somewhere between 15 and 25 as I'm not being exact). You can get the pressure at that depth by multiplying the depth in meters by 3,000 then by 1.6. It is 96000 Newtons per meter squared or 0.95 standard atmospheres at 20 meters. In other words, pressure and temp needed to keep water liquid should be found about 20 meters below the surface of the moon. ~modest So volcanic glass with copper and or iron in it to transfer the heat to that depth. Lets start drilling. Quote
modest Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 So volcanic glass with copper and or iron in it to transfer the heat to that depth. I don't know what that means. ~modest Quote
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