Kites & kiting

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

LOL!

 

 

What a difference 30+years makes Interestingly or not, still flyin cheapy dime store Deltas

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2013 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Turtle]

LOL!

 

 

What a difference 30+years makes Interestingly or not, still flyin cheapy dime store Deltas

 

I found a 30 year old photo of me flying a kite and took a digital photo of it. It's 1 of only 4 aerial shots I still have. I'm the guy in the red jacket at the end of the line. Interestingly -or not- I was flying the borrowed Official Festival kite at Long Beach; a 15 ft delta-Conyne. The camera was a TLR [Twin Lens Reflex] Mamiaflex camera and I was using a radio control scavenged from a model boat to operate the shutter.

 

I planned to fit Matilda's cross spar today, but I have to go outside & it just rained. :( If it ends up accounting to more than a trace it will be our first rain since mid-June. I will start with just a single straight spar, but I have in mind to make a 2-piece set that I can use to experiment on different dihedral setups.

 

Got to reading my NASA pages and related links and so overthinking naturally ensued. Long story short and in a hyphenated-word, vortex-generators on the leading edge to reduce downwash & increase lift!!

 

 

 

 

PS

There any particular reason you are using that line?

 

Maybe it's time to move up to 50# or higher braided fishin line...or perhaps?

 

And interesting read, i'm sure their trying to sell something but is had my attention. http://www.my-best-k...ite-string.html

 

I looked at some fishing line today and found 30lb Dacron_® 300yds for $15 US. :thumbs_up Also a digital fish scale that from the package illustration appears to read-out to 1/100 oz up to 50lb for $18 US. Both will have to weight as I shot my kite budget on the lights, rings, and bolts. :lol: Also, I found your link interesting because I did not know that Dacron was just a trade-name for polyester. Speaking of polyester, I dated her briefly in the 60's. :lol:

Edited August 10, 2013 by Turtle

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

It's funny polyester clothes = cheap

Polyester rope and string = cheap

Dacron (despite being polyester) rope and string = somewhat pricey

Dacron sail = very pricey

Proper canvas = virtually unobtainable

 

I see Craig is yet to take up our invitation :(

 

Not much flyin here...rain.

 

Hrrmmm....vortex generators.....I wonder....how big you figure they'd have to be to be of any use?..Overkill on a 4 foot wingspan?

[Turtle]

It's funny polyester clothes = cheap

Polyester rope and string = cheap

Dacron (despite being polyester) rope and string = somewhat pricey

Dacron sail = very pricey

Proper canvas = virtually unobtainable

 

As to the Dacron string I priced, it is only $3 more than what I paid for the Mason Line and it is stronger, lighter, and thinner. Not a big deal on low flights, but could make a big difference flying high.

I see Craig is yet to take up our invitation :(

 

Maybe busy. :shrug:

 

 

Hrrmmm....vortex generators.....I wonder....how big you figure they'd have to be to be of any use?..Overkill on a 4 foot wingspan?

 

 

So they talk about them only needing to be taller than the boundary layer. It looks like on small planes the vortex generators are no more than 2 inches tall, but I can't really say how thick the boundary layer is for our kites. Being as our kites are smaller than small planes I suspect an inch or so high ought'a tell. :shrug: Vortex generators can be thin though, so maybe just a couple tabs of tape per wing for an experiment on your 4 footers?

 

I have the first variation of the aluminum cross-spar all sized, machined, and installed in Matilda. It is currently set taught, on the front/bottom/down side of kite & tied to longerons, with1 leg of angle-stock down and the other forward. If I slide the wing-spars into pockets reverse [upside-down] of what I have, I can try putting the cross-spar on back . Either side I can put it 1 leg up & 1 leg forward besides as I have it and tie the cross-spar to longerons or not.

 

Getting 'er done.

Edited August 10, 2013 by Turtle

[Turtle]

snip...

EDIT: PS Was reading the Fort Warden page I linked to and they have a link to an article about the premier year. It confirms my suspicion that I was there as there is mention and photos of Nigel Spaxman and I remember him specifically. I still have one of the 3-foot flexifoils that I built under his tutelage, though the all-important tapered spar he custom made appears to be lost. They flew OK, but they always were a little small for the weight of the spar and took a brisk breeze to really perform. The flexifoil is a 2-line controllable kite, in case you didn't know. Nigel was from BC, young then, and a gas to hang with. Still kickin' it with kites Nigel?

 

Here's the story & pics. >> Kite Lines: Fort Warden

 

 

Looking over the pics at the story, I see I'm in one. :omg: Guess what? My back's to the camera.

 

Image attached:

 

I'm foreground right, leaning on the machine table. The kid sitting at the sewing machine is Doug Hagaman, a legend in kiting. I met him the previous year ('83) at Long Beach and he organized this retreat. Got to looking for him just now online and apparently he's dead. At Long Beach he showed a grip of slides of a cultural exchange trip he made to China the previous year. Based on kites of course. Fantastic stuff only made better by Doug's enthusiasm.

 

Here's the only mention I've found of Doug's passing. Not clear what year though??? Anyway, cheers Doug! [The Sunday 'ruckus about 4 am' mentioned in the KiteLines article above may -or may not- have been related to Doug's consumption of beer. :friday:]

 

 

Gomberg Kites

June 13

 

Hagaman Parafoils

 

 

A few months back, we mentioned that we have access to Hagaman Parafoils.

 

Those of you familiar with Doug Hagaman and his meticulous craftsmanship recognize these kites as the Rolls Royce of lifters. Following Doug's untimely death, the production of his parafoil design shifted from Washington State to Stan Swanson in Colorado. Few of the kites are now seen on flying fields. Partly this is because of the price. "Hagaman's sell for $20 a square foot -- $1200 for a 60. But the other reason is that the kites are now almost exclusively being produced for scientific research. Hagaman's are used in the arctic for lifting instruments and radio antenna, and in the South Pacific for studying wind patterns.

 

...

Edited August 10, 2013 by Turtle

[Turtle]

I have some new ideas on dropping wildflower seeds from kites.

 

First, I rather don't like the clay-balls business as it requires wetting & then drying, and this may cause some seeds to start germinating and then not. So, tissue paper wrapped balls with just compost & seeds.

 

Second, rather than just drop seed bags, each bag should have its own tissue parachute. Cotton thread shroud-lines and voila! The range for the bags is greatly extended. For a more even distribution over a given range, use different sized parachutes & bags in a single drop.

 

That'll do it.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Lol, I again raise objection to clad seeds, you litterbug! (seriously you might be inviting a ticket).

 

And then there's the matter of folks gettin thumped on the head by falling seed clods

 

All for gettin about the same range as.

 

Would look pretty with the chutes though.

[Turtle]

Lol, I again raise objection to clad seeds, you litterbug! (seriously you might be inviting a ticket).

 

Bring it copper!

 

And then there's the matter of folks gettin thumped on the head by falling seed clods

 

It's a gamble a'right. Again, .

 

All for gettin about the same range as.

 

Using a kite, I could put parachute-seed-bags miles from my position on the ground. No wrist-rocket gonna do that. :naughty:

 

Would look pretty with the chutes though.

 

Indeed.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Schmertzy pantz!

 

Using a kite, I could put parachute-seed-bags miles from my position on the ground. No wrist-rocket gonna do that. :naughty:

Ehrmmm, maybe....under ideal wind conditions...with large enough chutes.....with a light enough payload......if you got the kite high enough....during a lunar eclipse.....

[Turtle]

Schmertzy pantz!

 

 

Ehrmmm, maybe....under ideal wind conditions...with large enough chutes.....with a light enough payload......if you got the kite high enough....during a lunar eclipse.....

 

:D Yes; that's my point exactly. :thumbs_up Properly designed and timed, the kite can deliver seed over a large range from a single people position on the ground that otherwise could not. [Yes yes; balloons could too. Compared the price of wind to helium lately?

 

I'm currently collecting Prunella vulgaris seeds from my wildflower beds for my first experiment. :rose:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Lol! Nope....who says you gotta use helium? Hydrogen is cheap and easy, when yer done you light the veggie oil soaked line and enjoy the show.

Edited August 12, 2013 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Turtle]

Lol! Nope....who says you gotta use helium? Hydrogen is cheap and easy, when yer done you light the veggie oil soaked line and enjoy the show.

 

 

Oh the humanity!! :omg:

 

I'll stick to the kites. Balloons and gas cost too much. I have a bunch of seeds now, but wind or no this is not the season for planting. I was thinking I could collect some Maple seeds, hollow out the seed part and put in my little seeds, and then drop the little 'helicopters' from the kite. A proven design and biodegradable too.

 

Kite work is done 'til I can test the new setup, but it's been either rainy or no wind of late so I got nada. :(

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I was thinking I could collect some Maple seeds, hollow out the seed part and put in my little seeds, and then drop the little 'helicopters' from the kite. A proven design and biodegradable too.

Now that's a cool idea....I likes it :)

[Turtle]

Now that's a cool idea....I likes it :)

 

I'm on it like spin on a Maple seed. :D

 

I haven't forgotten about calculating your altitude on 15000yd of line. I now have printed out the notepad file with your kite info and will be having at it again soon.

 

While I'm not ready to try and figure out how the lift drops at a mile or 2 up, it is a matter of some importance for such high flying. Reading one source, they say atmospheric pressure at 1 mile is 12.2psi as compared to 14.7psi at sea level. Reading the Wiki page on atmosphere quickly dashes my hope of a simple calculation, as knowing the temperature becomes a necessary consideration.

 

 

atmosphere @ Wikipedia

...

The pressure of an atmospheric gas decreases with altitude due to the diminishing mass of gas above each location. The height at which the pressure from an atmosphere declines by a factor of e (an irrational number with a value of 2.71828..) is called the scale height and is denoted by H. For an atmosphere with a uniform temperature, the scale height is proportional to the temperature and inversely proportional to the mean molecular mass of dry air times the planet's gravitational force per unit area of on the surface of the earth. For such a model atmosphere, the pressure declines exponentially with increasing altitude. However, atmospheres are not uniform in temperature, so the exact determination of the atmospheric pressure at any particular altitude is more complex.

 

...

 

Kite on!

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I don't know how it could be easy anyway :( What we really need is not ground air speed, but the wind speed at altitude and every point along the line. The other day my line was running towards the front of my property (east) while my kite was behind my property (to the west), clearly illustrating how the wind at a lower altitude level can be entirely different than at a higher altitude. Apparently there is enough drag on the line to allow one hell of an arc (180 deg) while still having a good deal of tension. Starting to wonder if anything but an altimeter and a barometer used in conjunction can give an accurate altitude...added barometer to the list because I suspect changing barometric pressure affects the accuracy of altimeters...(don't they use air pressure to determine altitude?)

wiki- However, one must be aware that this type of altimeter relies on "density altitude" and its readings can vary by hundreds of feet owing to a sudden change in air pressure, such as from a cold front, without any actual change in altitude.^[2]

 

Global Positioning System (GPS) receivers can also determine altitude by trilateration with four or more satellites. In aircraft, altitude determined using autonomous GPS is not precise or accurate enough to supersede the pressure altimeter without using some method of augmentation. In hiking and climbing, it is not uncommon to find that the altitude measured by GPS is off by as much as a thousand meters,^{[citation needed]} if all the available satellites happen to be close to the horizon.

Holy crap! Methinx that the only accurate means of determining altitude would be to have an assistant go stand under the kite, note their location either on a GPS or a map, use an accurate device to determine the angle to the kite from the flyer and then calculate the third leg of the triangle created by all three points. To be absolutely clear... The flyer ( a ), the kite (( b ), and the assistant ( c )....BUT even then how does one determine when they are actually directly below the kite?

 

EDIT: Oops!, the only known distance is to the assistant!

 

EDIT: Oops! forgot it's not hard to use a known length of a line to determine the unknown length of a line at a known angle beginning at the same starting point and terminating directly above to the known line's ending point. Dur!!

 

EDIT: Crap! I have a book with all sorts of good applied mathematics (granted it's from 1948, but I doubt things have changed that much)...wonder if the section on gunnery has a nifty formula that would apply...I'ma go look at it.

Edited August 14, 2013 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Turtle]

I don't know how it could be easy anyway :( What we really need is not ground air speed, but the wind speed at altitude and every point along the line. The other day my line was running towards the front of my property (east) while my kite was behind my property (to the west), clearly illustrating how the wind at a lower altitude level can be entirely different than at a higher altitude. Apparently there is enough drag on the line to allow one hell of an arc (180 deg) while still having a good deal of tension. Starting to wonder if anything but an altimeter and a barometer used in conjunction can give an accurate altitude...added barometer to the list because I suspect changing barometric pressure affects the accuracy of altimeters...(don't they use air pressure to determine altitude?)

[/size]

 

Holy crap! Methinx that the only accurate means of determining altitude would be to have an assistant go stand under the kite, note their location either on a GPS or a map, use an accurate device to determine the angle to the kite from the flyer and then calculate the third leg of the triangle created by all three points. To be absolutely clear... The flyer ( a ), [/size]the kite (( b ), and the assistant ( c )....BUT even then how does one determine when they are actually directly below the kite?

 

EDIT: Oops!, the only known distance is to the assistant!

 

EDIT: Oops! forgot it's not hard to use a known length of a line to determine the unknown length of a line at a known angle beginning at the same starting point and terminating directly above to the known line's ending point. Dur!!

 

EDIT: Crap! I have a book with all sorts of good applied mathematics (granted it's from 1948, but I doubt things have changed that much)...wonder if the section on gunnery has a nifty formula that would apply...I'ma go look at it.

 

LOL! Maddening, ain't it.

 

Here's NASA's pages for the 2-person observation & calculation. :smart:

 

Determine Maximum Altitude

 

Altitude Equation Derivation

 

Graphical Maximum Altitude

 

And here again is the best altimeter I've seen. Sold for model rocketeers. >> Jolly Logic AltimeterOne

 

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I see an issue with the first link, it seems to me differences in elevation between observers would skew results...and it's very hilly here.