Kites & kiting

[Turtle]

Here are the drawings of my early carriage. I was using a model RC servo to trip the shutter of the SLR and an add-on motor drive unit to advance the film. The drive is on the bottom of the camera in picture above & requires 6 AAA batteries. Say 'what the hell!!??' :lol:

[JMJones0424]

...In any case, if I plan to haul the carriage up after the kites are up & steady, I also need a single pulley attached just below the lowest kite. Here again, a 'thin' line jumps the wheel and ever more easily because the line through it is more-or-less slack except when hauling because the line must be put through the hauling pulley before the kites go up. Here I have been thinking maybe the pulley in an enclosure with the in & out strings passing through little slits, or a piece of sponge or some such a matter as would keep the line inside the enclosure tensioned on the wheel. For now I'm just going to use a 1" nylon ring.

The ring would be simplest, though I'd be worried about line friction cutting through nylon. If you want to get fancy you can always use a pulley with a quick-release on the pull line. Fasten the pulley under the lowest kite however you wish, run the camera pull line around the pulley and tie a quick-release snug up against the pulley. When the kite train is at its desired height, a swift tug on the camera pull line will unfasten the quick release. From here on you'd have to maintain tension to prevent the line from fouling on the pulley. I used something similar to this kind of rig for hauling antennas up into trees without having to climb to set the ring (carabiner) or retrieve it.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Turtle- one of the benefits of working at a nursery is that there's almost guaranteed to be at least a few hours a day that I'm doing a mindless, repetitive task that allows me to ponder life's great mysteries. Today, I was thinking about your pulley problem.

 

It seems you have at least a few pulleys hanging around, would it make it easier to keep the line from jumping in between the pulley and the casing if you mounted three pulleys in line? Wrap the line under the first, over the second, and under the third. I haven't tried it myself, so I may be way off base, but it seems like a variation of this arrangement may help keep the line in track more than just a single pulley. Of course, it may introduce new problems that are just as bad as the one it's trying to fix, like too much friction or inability to use with a spliced line.

 

Alternatively, you could still use one pulley, but manufacture (from coat hangers or something similar) minders that keep the line centered on the pulley as it pulls through.

The biggest issue is Turtles use of knotted together lines...silly turtle ...Keeping the line in the pulleys would certainly work better in the over under configuration as you mentioned, but the knots in the line would likely impede up and down travel to the point of rendering the pulleys useless.

 

I were thinkin mr T., why you don't attach a single pulley at the kite properly washered to keep it from binding and the shackle properly squeezed in to prevent the line hoppin out of the pulley groove , and instead of setting up with flying line and a messenger line use a single continuous loop...the tension of the kite pulin the line would help hold it in the pulley,..and done in a loop configuration all you would need to do is pull in one side of the line while easing out the other fo get the camera up.

 

 

[Turtle]

The ring would be simplest, though I'd be worried about line friction cutting through nylon. If you want to get fancy you can always use a pulley with a quick-release on the pull line. Fasten the pulley under the lowest kite however you wish, run the camera pull line around the pulley and tie a quick-release snug up against the pulley. When the kite train is at its desired height, a swift tug on the camera pull line will unfasten the quick release. From here on you'd have to maintain tension to prevent the line from fouling on the pulley. I used something similar to this kind of rig for hauling antennas up into trees without having to climb to set the ring (carabiner) or retrieve it.

 

That would work if I first lay out as much hauling line as I will use. The way I used to do it was to feed the hauling line through the pulley and tie off the end to the ground. Then, as I let out the kite, the hauling line spools off its reel through the pulley. At the time I was using a stiff braided nylon that was big enough not to slip the wheel. It was heavy but I had more than enough lift.

 

The biggest issue is Turtles use of knotted together lines...silly turtle ...Keeping the line in the pulleys would certainly work better in the over under configuration as you mentioned, but the knots in the line would likely impede up and down travel to the point of rendering the pulleys useless.

 

I were thinkin mr T., why you don't attach a single pulley at the kite properly washered to keep it from binding and the shackle properly squeezed in to prevent the line hoppin out of the pulley groove , and instead of setting up with flying line and a messenger line use a single continuous loop...the tension of the kite pulin the line would help hold it in the pulley,..and done in a loop configuration all you would need to do is pull in one side of the line while easing out the other fo get the camera up.

 

My whipped sheet-bends came out pretty smooth, but I agree continuous line would be ideal. Your loop would work, but as with JM's quick-release I would have to have it all laid out before lifting the pulley. While that's not a big deal for a couple hundred feet, it could get to be a pretty tangled scene for a high flight. If I got to the 400 feet I'm shooting for with the camera now, I'd need 800ft of line layed out. :omg:

 

I'm going to put together one of the cross-spar sets from the rhombox and work out how to attach the carriage inside the kite. I may even do away with the carriage and try lashing the camera directly to it. One thing with my video camera is that I have to have it upright or the vid will be upside down. This didn't matter with the SLR because you can just turn the print over. I think I read that the new HERO3 has an upside-down setting to fix this problem. G'donya hero! :thumbs_up

[Turtle]

snip...

I'm going to put together one of the cross-spar sets from the rhombox and work out how to attach the carriage inside the kite. I may even do away with the carriage and try lashing the camera directly to it.

 

 

Here's 4000 words on the above setup. Ready to ride. :steering: I figure to put it in the lower section of the upper cell and aim through the vent either forward or back facing.

 

Also a shot of the old flying line I mentioned using in the pulley. All I have of it is scraps. A fisherman gave me 600+ft of it; he said they used it to pull up crab pots. Easy come, easy go. :shrug:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

My whipped sheet-bends came out pretty smooth, but I agree continuous line would be ideal. Your loop would work, but as with JM's quick-release I would have to have it all laid out before lifting the pulley. While that's not a big deal for a couple hundred feet, it could get to be a pretty tangled scene for a high flight. If I got to the 400 feet I'm shooting for with the camera now, I'd need 800ft of line layed out. :omg:

Not necessarily my hard shelled friend.

With the pulley on the kite you only need to pay out one leg at a time...attach the camera at the halfway point, then spool out the rest...kite goes up, camera goes up....when both legs are equal the camera is at the kite. I guess I explain it wrong. You anchor one end of the line the other is the free line which you spool out, in between is the pulley on the kite. When you determine how much high you want to go you stop paying out line half way there and attach the camera then start paying out line again until the camera is at the kite.

[Turtle]

Not necessarily my hard shelled friend.

With the pulley on the kite you only need to pay out one leg at a time...attach the camera at the halfway point, then spool out the rest...kite goes up, camera goes up....when both legs are equal the camera is at the kite. I guess I explain it wrong. You anchor one end of the line the other is the free line which you spool out, in between is the pulley on the kite. When you determine how much high you want to go you stop paying out line half way there and attach the camera then start paying out line again until the camera is at the kite.

 

I think I understand and I think it would work. :smart: Under the right circumstances, having the kite doing the hauling is swell! :thumbs_up Even so, it requires a pulley setup that won't slip the hauling line from the wheel or otherwise bind it

 

I was thinking I could attach to the non-camera side of the carriage platform a 9v battery connected to a motor driving a ducted prop and fly the camera up the line. Shutoff would be accomplished by tying a plate/ring/knot into the line as with messengers. You could rig it to then latch & stay, or ride back down the line. I was thinking a vid of a line drop ride would be cool anyway I accomplish it.

 

Now then I got thinking about my 9v battery & motor and decided that instead of a prop I could attach a flywheel and so produce a gyroscopic stabilization without using the arms scheme of Lawrence.

 

Mmmmmm...no wind. Rats!! Heavy rain said to be moving in. :weather_rain: Double rats double-D double et double al!! :rant: :rant: :lol:

[Turtle]

Now then I got thinking about my 9v battery & motor and decided that instead of a prop I could attach a flywheel and so produce a gyroscopic stabilization without using the arms scheme of Lawrence.

 

Mmmmmm...no wind. Rats!! Heavy rain said to be moving in. :weather_rain:

 

So a little experimenting while huddling inside. In practice the gyroscope would be rigidly affixed. The motor is salvaged from a toy pitching machine and the wheel is foam; in practice I would use a heavier wheel. To dampen the noise and protect from direct wind effects, I would encase the gyro in foam.

 

Clearly going to put some torque on the carriage, so some accommodation may be needed depending on how the carriage is attached to line. My tube-follower would spread that torque over several inches of line and reach an equilibrium. In theory. :lol:

 

On with the experiment before I get caught having too much fun!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QQ1uWGS6IM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUiDIgwwtUxDi7fxhELuBtxg

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Ooooo, me rikey...perhaps a pair of cheapy gyroscopes of the pull the string variety, modified of course to be driven by an electric motor....ooooo, or scavenged plates and motor from a hard drive.

 

As far as that pulley goes, easy peasy, my friend easy peasy....

 

Just got done with a bout with very heavy wind here, very very windy all day...too windy in fact....makes me wish I'd tried to loft my big delta.

[Turtle]

Ooooo, me rikey...perhaps a pair of cheapy gyroscopes of the pull the string variety, modified of course to be driven by an electric motor....ooooo, or scavenged plates and motor from a hard drive.

 

As far as that pulley goes, easy peasy, my friend easy peasy....

 

Just got done with a bout with very heavy wind here, very very windy all day...too windy in fact....makes me wish I'd tried to loft my big delta.

 

Heavy wind!?? Rats!! :rant:

 

So as luck has it, I do have a matched pair of motors and wheels. In the toy they ran in opposite directions and would pinch the ball between the wheels and shoot it out. With 2 gyros running in opposite directions but along the same axis, I would eliminate the torque.

 

Not sure these 2 motors have the oomph to haul the carriage with camera, but I have some 12v motors salvaged from kiddy cars that would do the trick. Can we say more power? :lightning

[Turtle]

Twin-series-wired-counter-rotating-aerial-camera-carriage-stabilization-gyros on frame rails. Somebody stop me.

[Turtle]

Ooooopppssss! Went off the deep end there. The twins didn't work well together so I gave them the axe. I suspect to make gyros work as stabilizers for the camera & carriage you would need as much mass in the flywheels as you would need in a simple hanging weight as Lawrence used. Higher speed motors than I used might also be necessary. I can assure you from past experimentation that heavy fast flywheels put together with my level of equipment and skills are invitations to injury. :ebomb: Still, a bunch of gyros hanging from a kite line might make for some interesting action and draw the attention of the aliens. (It is well known that all alien races are drawn to gyroscopes like moths to flames.)

 

Nothing to see here folks. Move along. :coffee_n_pc:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

LOL!

 

I think it has less to do with actual mass and more to do with where the mass is. Take the following for example: this -> o has the same mass as -> O Which will exert more resistance to rotation perpendicular it's spin. Which will require less spin to produce discernable resistance to perpendicular rotation. I think you just need bigger diameter flywheels....If you have a scrap hard drive you have access to a pair of beauties.

 

 

[Turtle]

LOL!

 

I think it has less to do with actual mass and more to do with where the mass is. Take the following for example: this -> o has the same mass as -> O Which will exert more resistance to rotation perpendicular it's spin. Which will require less spin to produce discernable resistance to perpendicular rotation. I think you just need bigger diameter flywheels....If you have a scrap hard drive you have access to a pair of beauties.

 

I must defer to the KISS principle, which gyroscopes do not satisfy. Moreover I don't want to attract the aliens to my house again or have to duck & dodge out of control gyros and/or bits flying off of them. :ebomb: :omg: Besides that, I'm already pushing the limits of my concentration on the flying field and the last thing I need is another set of complications. :hammer:

 

Those are my guns, and I'm sticking to them. :Guns: What's that Zork? You wanna piece of me? stupid zork. :P

 

OK How about this. I hook a ...erhm... an ... ah hell. I got nothin'! :blink:

[Racoon]

Thread of the Year!

 

:dogwalk:

[Turtle]

Thread of the Year!

 

:dogwalk:

 

 

:bow_flowers: I would like to thank the Academy & an orange & white cat. :cat:

 

Meantime, lest I rest on my laurels and get all leafy, I found a pretty cool aerial carriage with apparent messenger wing-drive circa 1913. The line-ride setup appears to be similar to JM's idea, with a larger idler pulley pressing up on the line between 2 smaller end pulleys. The setup was being used to photograph an archaeological site as best I can tell. Say dead ancestors!!

 

Source: >> West Lothian Archaeology

 

[JMJones0424]

If you're taking votes (you are, aren't you?), my vote is for DD's idea. It's simple, allows easy spooling of line, and provided you can construct minders for the pulley, easily in your reach. However, your previous photo and your gyroscope experiments gave me an idea.

 

Instead of what you are calling an idler pulley, why not make that a drive pulley? This way there's only one line and no possibility of twisting in flight and ruining your best laid plans. Of course, now you'll have to figure out how to remotely stop the drive pulley, and ideally, how to reverse it. Or is a reverse necessary? I assume it would be, as you want the kite up in the wind to support the weight of the camera as you retrieve it. If that weren't necessary, then you could just as easily launch the kite with the camera attached.