Kites & kiting

[JMJones0424]

Meh, I think we're overthinking all of this. No pulleys, no secondary pull lines. Make a kite train of two kites. First kite is big enough and has enough lead to draw second kite + camera up. Problem solved.

[Turtle]

Meh, I think we're overthinking all of this. No pulleys, no secondary pull lines. Make a kite train of two kites. First kite is big enough and has enough lead to draw second kite + camera up. Problem solved.

 

:lol: I just lost a lengthy overthunk post to the aether. I'm taking votes, motions to votes, motions to overturn motions to vote, and other such means as necessary to get to Problem Solved. I second your solution and bring it to the floor for a vote. So gaveled. :hammer:

 

I have now just what it takes to pull that off. :thumbs_up Well, except enough heavy line to get the kite with the camera on it to 400ft. I have a small line of about 80ft for the lead kite, and just under 200ft of my 1/8" knotted line so I might make only 150ft up. I have another 100ft of Heavy 1/4" braided line that I could tie in if the kites can lift it. Do I hear 217ft? :singer:

 

OK Better submit before another goblin. :coffee_n_pc:

[Turtle]

If you're taking votes (you are, aren't you?), my vote is for DD's idea. It's simple, allows easy spooling of line, and provided you can construct minders for the pulley, easily in your reach. However, your previous photo and your gyroscope experiments gave me an idea.

 

Instead of what you are calling an idler pulley, why not make that a drive pulley? This way there's only one line and no possibility of twisting in flight and ruining your best laid plans. Of course, now you'll have to figure out how to remotely stop the drive pulley, and ideally, how to reverse it. Or is a reverse necessary? I assume it would be, as you want the kite up in the wind to support the weight of the camera as you retrieve it. If that weren't necessary, then you could just as easily launch the kite with the camera attached.

 

For at least a hundred years the term 'messenger' is applied to devices which travel up and sometimes down the flying line. That last image I put up appears to be a messenger that happens to carry a camera.

 

My photo analysis: The curve-ended rod you see just projecting from behind the round sail is the trigger. When that trigger bar hits a disk or other blocking structure tied into the line at the desired altitude, the sail is folded up powered by elastic bands. (Those darkly looking longitudinal thingys under flying line & above camera.) Whether the whole thing stays put or returns isn't clear to me from the image. The folded wings may even serve as rudders in a way that stabilizes the camera against swinging side-to-side. :shrug:

 

So, the same messenger scheme could apply to a power drive unit. Trigger bar trips electric switch. I think I'd like a timer to keep it at height for awhile, and then it could either drive down in reverse or fall by gravity. The closer to the kite, the steeper the line & you should plan on enough power for a vertical climb. Having the line wrap around the drive drum a time or two?

 

This concludes. :coffee_n_pc:

 

 

PS Or not. :lol: So on further close inspection of the winged messenger mechanism it appears to me that the folding of the wings trips the shutter. Note the line from each wing 'tip' running to a common lever just behind & above the camera. See the shutter cable from camera to directly above lever. I also notice that the camera is a stereo camera. :photos:

Edited September 6, 2013 by Turtle

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Cordless screwdriver motor (and gear drive) + spool + momentary off contact switch + DPDT toggle switch + egg timer + battery pack= powered carriage that can climb the line, hang out for a while, then wander back down on it's own after a predetermined amount of time has passed.

[Turtle]

Cordless screwdriver motor (and gear drive) + spool + momentary off contact switch + DPDT toggle switch + egg timer + battery pack= powered carriage that can climb the line, hang out for a while, then wander back down on it's own after a predetermined amount of time has passed.

 

 

Sounds good to me.:thumbs_up I do have a little motor with an in-line gearbox on it, but not sure if its from a screwdriver or not. I will at least hook it up and see how much torque it has.

 

Some clever Guss could add a circuit board and program the little gizmo to do a line dance while periodically dropping stuff or doing other actions as a clever Guss would have done. :wave: :xparty:

[Turtle]

I am mucho chagrino to find I don't own a soldering iron. Nevertheless, I think I can borrow one if the need arises.

 

Meantime I dug out my apparatus and as there is a little plug at the end of the motor wires I don't think it's from a screwdriver. Cord is short so prolly not a sex toy either. :omg: The battery case and switch are from the old RC unit I had to activate cam shutter. Motor on gear-box says 6v and I will try it out ASAIHP.

 

I denominate the device, Line Monkey. Ooo oo ah ah ah ... Imagine multiple monkeys dancing in unison at night with lights. :candle: Now that's a party any monkey can love.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Turtle

[Turtle]

This particular motor/gear-train setup may not handle the weight of the camera, but I think it would carry itself & batteries. There is a clutch in it as well I find.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQW08ux_jgY&feature=c4-overview&list=UUiDIgwwtUxDi7fxhELuBtxg

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Sounds like the motor could safely take more voltage...ermm..forget it...just took another look at the pic...that motor ain't goin to cut it...I've seen more grunt from lego motors...Heyyyyyyyyyyy, wait a sec. :P

 

I don't know about your budget constraints, but ...yup good ol Harbor Freight has 18V cordless drills for $20 for $3 more it can be had with a flashlight that runs off of the battery pack, the drive unit from one of them would get you up the line uber quick.

 

I know some folk don't like dealing with them due to bad experiences, I've been lucky I guess...everything i've bought has held up beyond expectations...in any case they're cheap and they have stores everywhere so I figured it highly likely there'd be one near you if the idea interested you....I'ma shut up now, already feel like i'm on the verge of spamming.

[Turtle]

Sounds like the motor could safely take more voltage...ermm..forget it...just took another look at the pic...that motor ain't goin to cut it...I've seen more grunt from lego motors...Heyyyyyyyyyyy, wait a sec. :P

 

I don't know about your budget constraints, but ...yup good ol Harbor Freight has 18V cordless drills for $20 for $3 more it can be had with a flashlight that runs off of the battery pack, the drive unit from one of them would get you up the line uber quick.

 

I know some folk don't like dealing with them due to bad experiences, I've been lucky I guess...everything i've bought has held up beyond expectations...in any case they're cheap and they have stores everywhere so I figured it highly likely there'd be one near you if the idea interested you....I'ma shut up now, already feel like i'm on the verge of spamming.

 

I've always had good results at Harbor Freight too. I have pretty much shot my kite budget for the year however, so if I can't cobble something together with what I have it ain't gettin' cobbled. And no, I won't pop my weasel. :lol:

 

Currently socked in by rain & clouds. No joy.

[Turtle]

Idea. Videograph gyroscope with parachute dropped from kite.

 

Speaking of salvage, I happened on a discarded plastic reel today. Conveniently the ends come off, although they have insets for nuts to hold 2 long bolts from end to end.

 

A couple things come to mind. First, the high sides are just what we want in a line-travelling pulley as well as a hauling-line pulley high up the line. No way is a line creeping out of a deep narrow pulley. I'm sure I have enough scrap laying around to build a prototype.

 

Second then is the fact that if I were to attach my motor/gear-box to this new reel, it would travel faster on the line without trying to speed up the motor with higher voltage. Of course it increases the load on the motor, so somewhere there is a drum size that optimizes speed without overworking the motor. You know what they say: the Devil is on the other end of the see-saw.

 

Here's pic of reel next to motor. I added a red line to show the shortest drum I can cut and still have the ends fit in.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Wow, that spool looks to be the perfect diameter for a dril motor drive....or the drive motor from a child's ride in electric vehicle...as I recall my youngest step daughter's little jeep had two electric motors each with nifty reduction boxes whose drive hubs would have been a perfect match for that there spool....as an added bonus the reduction drive was offset enough that the motor housing could have functioned as an anti rotation device...wouldn't happen to have an old electric rider from one of your youngins stashed away somewhere per chance? Perhaps a raid on a local thrift store would yield a cheap either/or.

 

Gnite Mr T, happy dreams.

Edited September 7, 2013 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Turtle]

Wow, that spool looks to be the perfect diameter for a dril motor drive....or the drive motor from a child's ride in electric vehicle...as I recall my youngest step daughter's little jeep had two electric motors each with nifty reduction boxes whose drive hubs would have been a perfect match for that there spool....as an added bonus the reduction drive was offset enough that the motor housing could have functioned as an anti rotation device...wouldn't happen to have an old electric rider from one of your youngins stashed away somewhere per chance? Perhaps a raid on a local thrift store would yield a cheap either/or.

 

Gnite Mr T, happy dreams.

 

Goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are. :lol:

 

So I have 2 such motors. One with a single gear and the other just a shaft. I have used them to power gyros, in spite of which I survived to say DANGER Will Robinson!! Running at top speed they are powerful gyros all by themselves. Of course you'll want to just lay one on the bench and hook it to a car battery to see for yourself(s) what I mean. [Disclaimer: Dear Tender Reader do not just lay one on the bench and hook it to a car battery to see for yourself(s) what I mean. :lol:

 

Maybe if I get enough votes I'll make a video and use all the proper safety precautions such as setting the ashtray and beer off the table. Sometimes the beer spilling puts out the fire, but it's no a cinch and there's still all the broken glass to pick out of the walls. Remember, I am a professional. :friday: [Disclaimer: Dear Tender Readers... ]

 

I can't say that I have much experience running them on lower than 12v. I did use a model train transformer to gradually power them up when I had heavy flywheels on them, but I never ran them long. Will try some experimenting with 6v & 9v batteries. Besides the voltage, these babies can draw some current and I suspect small batteries won't last long.

 

From what I can find online these style motors come in a variety of speeds from 6600rpm to 15000rpm. I don't know what these run at. The one with the gear has no markings at all. The other is marked Johnson Hong Kong, but no model or serial numbering.

 

This calls for a 12v lead-acid battery in the trike on the ground and a few hundred feet of 2 or 4 conductor insulated wire. With 4 wire I could drive the carriage up under power at night and then switch on the high-intensity halogen car headlight that I have strapped under the carriage. :smilingsun: :blink: Can ya see me now Plork!? :Glasses: :

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

You crack me up.

 

There are better options for the battery, for example those made for drills, ni-cad battery packs for R/C cars, 6V lantern batteries, cell phone packs (I've got dozens from phones that died horrible deaths or were simply retired) at 3.6V a pop there should be enough juice in three to motivate it for the relatively short duration of operation...they're very light too....in any case Volts give, RPMs Amps provide torque (I think, that's the way it seems to work out) so perhaps whatever battery choice would be best set up to deliver good amperage over higher voltage.

 

Of course you'll want to just lay one on the bench and hook it to a car battery to see for yourself(s) what I mean. [Disclaimer: Dear Tender Reader do not just lay one on the bench and hook it to a car battery to see for yourself(s) what I mean. :lol:<br style="color: rgb(8, 8, 8); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">

Maybe if I get enough votes I'll make a video and use all the proper safety precautions such as setting the ashtray and beer off the table. Sometimes the beer spilling puts out the fire, but it's no a cinch and there's still all the broken glass to pick out of the walls. Remember, I am a professional. :friday:[Disclaimer: Dear Tender Readers... ]

If my wife were to read the above quoted, she'd swear I wrote it.

[Turtle]

You crack me up.

 

There are better options for the battery, for example those made for drills, ni-cad battery packs for R/C cars, 6V lantern batteries, cell phone packs (I've got dozens from phones that died horrible deaths or were simply retired) at 3.6V a pop there should be enough juice in three to motivate it for the relatively short duration of operation...they're very light too....in any case Volts give, RPMs Amps provide torque (I think, that's the way it seems to work out) so perhaps whatever battery choice would be best set up to deliver good amperage over higher voltage.

 

If my wife were to read the above quoted, she'd swear I wrote it.

 

I was thinking an RC car/truck would be a good salvage for this project. Not so much the radio part as the range is limited, but the motor(s) and gear train should be right in the power/speed range we need. I know of one that may be available, but I will have to sound it out. RC truck with 2 batteries and a quick-charger. :tongue: :naughty: :eshy: Perhaps rather than suggesting to the owner that I tear it apart, I should first simply wrap the line around a wheel and drive the whole thing up the line to show proof of concept? :omg: :lol: I do have to keep reminding myself not to get too wound up in things; I'm still trying to catch up on several weeks of chores that I ignored.

 

I see from my reading this week that putting the camera directly on the kite is being done, contrary to what I thought/said before. Found drawings & pics for a GoPro on a box kite frame pretty much as I laid out my scheme. It was a smaller camera and mounted in the bottom instead of the top, but aimed through the vents (forward or back). Alas I didn't save the link. :doh:

 

What I have yet to see is a power-drive messenger as we are now on about, so at least we have the potential for a first.

[Turtle]

I got to thinking how similar the line-traveler is to the space-elevator business and spent some time searching and reading up on it. I didn't run across any detailed photos or drawings of the drive units, but everything I did see was using a ribbon and not a 'string'. The drives appear to use opposing rollers to grip the ribbon, and while I can see in my mind's eye something similar for a string I think it would require more mechanism than my loops-around-a-capstan and that the pressure between rollers necessary to grip string such as I'm using would deform the string in some detrimental manner or another.

 

EDIT: PS I timed the little motor/gear-box @ ~4rpm on the drum. If I hooked it to that plastic reel which has a drum circumference of 7 1/4" it would take ~ 1hr 20 min to travel over 200 ft of string.

 

The weather broke a couple hours ago and a little breeze is up, but the kids' sports teams have the field. No joy.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Turtle

[Turtle]

To fully appreciate what I'm going to lay out, I recommend [say require] the Dear Tender Reader give a thorough read of what has prompted me. To whit, post #1 of Erich's new thread Carbon Fodders; Across scientific disciplines carbons are finding new utility to solve . I suspect he ran out of room on the title...ooopppsss. Anyway, Erich's expertise in the area of bio-char is unparalleled and many thanks to him for his latest post and all those he has put up here lo these many years. G'donya Erich!! :bouquet:

 

So, we go to a mountain top/side where we use the local deadwood to make a supply of charcoal. Then we put up a suitable kite train to a suitable altitude and procede to attach suitable line monkeys one at a suitable time & suitably spaced and each carrying a suitable amount of suitable charcoal. Let's say 1kg as that's well within the limits of a train of even modest sized kites. Besides the flying line that the monkeys climb, a second 'slack' line is attached one end at the monkey terminus and the other to the ground near the flying-line anchor. The monkey drives up the line to the terminus where it dumps its char, switches over to the slack line, and slides back down by gravity.

 

Batteries are recharged as necessary by a PV panel. Suppose we have the monkey terminus at 1000 feet of line and the monkeys crawl at 3mph. If there's only 1 monkey at a time on the line, that's about 15 trips per hour so 15kg per hour. Let's go for 5 hours and that's 75 kilos. Two monkeys on the line at a time & we can double that. Two kite trains running 2 monkeys and we quadruple it. 300 kilos delivered in 5 hours.

 

Now it is well enough to get the carbon into [remote] soils for all the many benefits, but Erich's new report includes the health benefits of animals eating char. If some of our char we pulverize small enough so that it will stay on leaves it falls on, we can get char into the diets of the wild herbivores. Voila!! Compounded benefit.

 

Besides tending the kites & monkeys, operators would collect samples, record weather data, make wildlife counts, and other such investigation as benefits the operation. Operators will direct assistants to hike into target areas after applications to assess efficacy. They will do as they are told without question and...oh...uhhhh...erhmmm...assistants will enjoy the great outdoors and comradere.

 

 

There we have it then. :coffee_n_pc:

Edited September 8, 2013 by Turtle

[Turtle]

I was thinking an RC car/truck would be a good salvage for this project. Not so much the radio part as the range is limited, but the motor(s) and gear train should be right in the power/speed range we need. I know of one that may be available, but I will have to sound it out. RC truck with 2 batteries and a quick-charger. :tongue: :naughty: :eshy: Perhaps rather than suggesting to the owner that I tear it apart, I should first simply wrap the line around a wheel and drive the whole thing up the line to show proof of concept? :omg: :lol: I do have to keep reminding myself not to get too wound up in things; I'm still trying to catch up on several weeks of chores that I ignored.

snip...

 

I'm wound tighter than a watch spring and if you don't ask, you won't know. I asked and got permission to drive a truck up a kite-line. :steering: I have taken possession of the equipment and employed First Assistant Patrick Jr. We will address him as Little Monkey ***. Sir. :lol: First order of business is to clean years of dust off the stuff and as you can see Little Monkey ***. Sir is already on it like stink on a monkey. How else, right? Updates and downfalls to follow.

 

:coffee_n_pc: