Kites & kiting

[Turtle]

:love:

 

Next thing we know, there will appear a big dog :dog: :love: at the curtain as well. Fortunately, I have kibbles and ale. :phones: :love: :shade:

 

So with Bee all in pieces I have started thinking how I might use the parts more or less as they are and reconfigure her for more lift (and possibly separation ;) ). In re-reading the thread and checking to see that the links were all good I looked over the site I linked that shows different kite designs along with their history. At any rate, a couple options for Bee have possibilities.

 

First option would be to keep the main form of the box but squish it a little flat to make what they call a rhomboid. Too flat and they get unstable and do a lot of rocking, but there is an optimum ratio that increases lift with no addition to sail area. All Bee needs for this makeover is a new set of cross struts. Here's a photo of a rhomboid form using multiple sail bands:

PChome Online ºô¸ô®a®x-¬Ûï :: Dieppe kite festival 2006 by Daniel >> pict0367.jpg

 

Second option I noticed is a conversion to a Conyne. I would need to do some cutting & sewing of the sails, but the longerons can remain as is. Here's a photo of a Conyne in flight:

http://gddweb.org/g2conyne.jpg

 

Here's the main page again where I found these photos; it has kite history as well.

The Virtual Kite Zoo

 

May your sticks stay straight and your string never go limp. ;) :bouquet:

[Turtle]

The section of my brain that handles the kiting index appears to have spilled some shelves. :D Something of a train. :eek_big: (that's kite humor, for the unitiated) So, I was thinking about my box kite and kites in general and it came to mind that some 20+ years ago I built a box kite all of 1/2 inch long, which I flew on a hair. :eek_big:

 

Then out spilled a gathering of kiters I attended and we had a small group of engineers there who specialized in small kites made of thin films. They were flying them in the lounge on only the air currents from people moving about.

 

Where the hell was I? Mmmmm...oh yeah! It was one of the Fort Warden Kite Retreats I attented in the early 80's (not 1880's this time :) ). Looking for some confirmation I web-searched 'Fort Warden Kite Retreat' and found that it is still going and the 2007 event is their 24th year. I did the math & concluded that I may have attended the premier event, and if not the first then the second. Here's their page:

http://www.kitemakers.org/

 

Dihedral spoken here. :)

[Turtle]

When it's hard to run with a kite and moments of excitement are few and far between, one's mind turns to contrivances of questionable repute. Just so, and in complete contravention to the accepted rules of etiquette and conduct for both kiting & rocketry, I have embarked on a design for a rocket powered kite launch system for Bee. Detailed calculation will be forthcoming as soon as someone submits some. This is secret stuff so keep your yap shut; loose lips, sink ships. :Glasses:

 

Do you think these are big enough? :naughty:

[imaplanck.]

Am I alone in seeing parallels with sex here?

[Turtle]

Am I alone in seeing parallels with sex here?

 

It was the smoke afterwards that gave it away, wasn't it‽ :) Well, you know what they always say; "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but a rocket is always a...___" err...well, you know. ;) :D

 

I now have a key-way attachment designed wherin as long as the rocket is thrusting it remains attached to Bee's longeron, and when it is spent it slips off and falls back to Earth.

 

I think we need thrust sufficient to boost around 7 pounds to an altitude of between 100 & 400 feet. Wheras rockets have no legal limit to altitude, a tethered kite must not excede 500 feet by US Federal Statutes. When you are breaking new ground, you gotta burn the chaff. ;)

[CraigD]

I voted “once/year”, but my actual habit it to kite every day for a few weeks every year, usually in the months of March-May.

 

When it's hard to run with a kite and moments of excitement are few and far between, one's mind turns to contrivances of questionable repute. Just so, and in complete contravention to the accepted rules of etiquette and conduct for both kiting & rocketry, I have embarked on a design for a rocket powered kite launch system for Bee.

Not that rockets aren’t fun and cool and all, but if your goal is just to launch a kite without running, the easiest scheme I know is to use some sort of string puller.

 

Years ago, I had a regular kite spot with consistent strong wind, but lots of surrounding woods that blocked the wind up to about 20 m AGL. Using a long elastic cord staked into the ground at one end and tied (via a paper clip) to the end of short string tied to the kite, I could walk the kite out roughtly downwind ‘til the elastic was as tight as the whole rig would bear (about 40 m), then just let it go. Pulled by the contracting elastic, the kite (my typical kite of the 1980s was a car-portable wood and paper box variation) would shoot up into the good wind, then bobble a bit until I got back to the stake, pulled in the slack elastic, and replaced it on the paperclip with the rest of the string.

 

This a pretty standard low-tech way of ground launching a free-flight or RC glider with a best climb speed faster than you can run, except that with a glider, the paper-clip or equivalent is clipped to a hook on the glider, so it and the string falls free after launch. Model airplane stores usually have long durable elastics for this – these days called “bungee launching” – like these (the little parachutes to keep the detached bungee from slapping someone silly is a nice touch foreign to me, but obviously unnecessary for a permanently attached kite)

 

Wheras rockets have no legal limit to altitude, a tethered kite must not excede 500 feet by US Federal Statutes. When you are breaking new ground, you gotta burn the chaff. :)

Technically, FAR 101 is a regulation, not a statute – an interpretation by FAA administrators of their general statutory duty to keep aircraft from crashing. The 500’ rule only applies to kites over 5#, with sting stonger than 50#.

 

You can get a waiver for these rules by phoning your nearest FAA ATC of FSS (unless you’re near a major airport, or city, your local FAA center is likely a Flight Service Station, not an Air Trafic Control center) and telling them what you’re up to and when. I did this a few times when I was trying to get a kite up really high. The FSS people were very friendly and accommodating, seeming interested. Also, they actually do warn planes and copters you’re there, which caused me to get visited by a lot of light planes curious to see if they could spot my kite and determine its altitude.

[Turtle]

I voted “once/year”, but my actual habit it to kite every day for a few weeks every year, usually in the months of March-May.

Excellent!

 

Not that rockets aren’t fun and cool and all, but if your goal is just to launch a kite without running, the easiest scheme I know is to use some sort of string puller.

:hyper: My goal was to lure closet kiters like yourself into my web of thread using some facetious hyperbole. :hihi: I have no intention of using rockets actually.

 

For myself, if I can't lay out some line and just toss the kite into the wind and have it go, then there's not enough wind. :)

 

Technically, FAR 101 is a regulation, not a statute – an interpretation by FAA administrators of their general statutory duty to keep aircraft from crashing. The 500’ rule only applies to kites over 5#, with sting stonger than 50#.

 

You can get a waiver for these rules by phoning your nearest FAA ATC of FSS (unless you’re near a major airport, or city, your local FAA center is likely a Flight Service Station, not an Air Trafic Control center) and telling them what you’re up to and when. I did this a few times when I was trying to get a kite up really high. The FSS people were very friendly and accommodating, seeming interested. Also, they actually do warn planes and copters you’re there, which caused me to get visited by a lot of light planes curious to see if they could spot my kite and determine its altitude.

 

Mmmm...I hadn't read the rules in a while and now I have more questions than answers. Do they mail you a Waiver, or give it verbally?

 

In reading the link I saw this:

No person may operate an unshielded moored balloon or kite more than 150 feet above the surface of the earth unless, at least 24 hours before beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:

 

Now it looks like the limit is 150 feet! What is 'shielding?'

 

Then this:

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (B) of this section, no person may operate a moored balloon or kite—

 

(1) Less than 500 feet from the base of any cloud;

Say what!?

 

and

B) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite between sunrise and sunset unless its mooring lines have colored pennants or streamers attached at not more than 50 foot intervals beginning at 150 feet above the surface of the earth and visible for at least one mile.

I have never in my life seen anyone do this!

 

Next thing we know we'll need a Waiver to wipe our bums! :doh: :cup:

[Turtle]

Technically, FAR 101 is a regulation, not a statute – an interpretation by FAA administrators of their general statutory duty to keep aircraft from crashing.

 

The more I chew on this, the less wind in my sails. Sucked every last bit of enjoyment I find (found) in kiting right out of me. :doh: Don't anyone hold their breath on me following through with putting the video camera aloft. :hihi: I'm no lawyer, but it sounds to me like a person could be prosecuted for violating these rules/regulations/statutes/legaleese. Not only that, but it clearly puts all these kite festivals in direct violation.

 

Of course, I just as soon turn 'em in as talk to them as all the politicizing, commercialism, quarrelling, one-upmanship, etcetera is what drove me away from the organized kiting in the first place.

 

Well, major bummer. :cup: Good thing Ben Franklin did his experiments before they were illegal. :hyper:

[CraigD]

Mmmm...I hadn't read the rules [FAR 101] in a while and now I have more questions than answers. Do they mail you a Waiver, or give it verbally?

Where I was, semi-rural southern West Virginia, I just talked on the phone for a while, and was given the go-ahead. This involved uncontrolled airspace covering just a few airstrips (the one with the FSS, Bluefield, large enough for private jets and a commuter airline), where FAA control is “advisory only” – it’s a good idea to talk and listen to the guys in the tower, but you’re not legally required to – in fact, you’re not legally required to even have a radio or radar transponder in an aircraft that doesn’t fly in controlled airspace. Kites, it appears, are more strictly regulated than planes!

 

Things may have changes since I had my dealings with the FAA over kites in the ‘80s, but I suspect not much. FAA employee want to be friendly and encourage people to tell them when they’re doing something that might hurt an aircraft – otherwise, people will just do whatever they want without telling them, and they won’t be able to warn pilots about it.

[Turtle]

Kites, it appears, are more strictly regulated than planes!

 

That is a sad state of affairs. :hihi:

 

Care to hazard a guess what 'shielding' on a kite is per the regs.? :hyper:

[Turtle]

The more I think on this the angrier I get about how completely arbitrary and downright stupid(:hyper: ) some of these regs are. :rant: :naughty: :censored: :cussing:

 

I still want to know what you all think 'shielding' is on a kite, but in the mean time here's a little math exercise for everyone. According to the regs >>>

B) No person may operate a moored balloon or kite between sunrise and sunset unless its mooring lines have colored pennants or streamers attached at not more than 50 foot intervals beginning at 150 feet above the surface of the earth and visible for at least one mile.

 

What is the color and minimum size of a streamer or penant in order for it to be visible from a mile away? (***-ume 20/20 'standard' vision)

 

Now given that measurement, what effect will it (they) have on the flying line and kite?

 

Boy am I cheesed!!! :rant: :shrug: :censored: :cussing:

 

[Turtle]

Aha! I consulted with my peeps and we may be able to avoid all the red-tape. :censored: To whit, section 101.1

(2) Except as provided for in §101.7, any kite that weighs more than 5 pounds and is intended to be flown at the end of a rope or cable.

 

So since Beatrix weighs in at 4 pounds, only this restriction applies. 101.7

§ 101.7 Hazardous operations.

top

(a) No person may operate any moored balloon, kite, unmanned rocket, or unmanned free balloon in a manner that creates a hazard to other persons, or their property.

 

(:cussing: No person operating any moored balloon, kite, unmanned rocket, or unmanned free balloon may allow an object to be dropped therefrom, if such action creates a hazard to other persons or their property.

 

(Sec. 6©, Department of Transportation Act (49 U.S.C. 1655©))

 

[Doc. No. 12800, 39 FR 22252, June 21, 1974]

 

The operation is now conditionally back on hold. Speaking of which, finding good weather to fly, that is wind, makes giving a 24 hour notice an act in futility. :cussing: :censored:

 

I'm tending to think in terms of reconfiguring Bee as a rhomboid and have a preliminary design in mind for a hub-block for the cross-stick crossing. When I built the kite I didn't want to stop and make a dowel die so I bought the commercial 3/8" dowels which come in 4 foot lengths, and this set the rest of the kite dimensions. The hub-block will let me span the greater-than 4 foot throw and still use commercial dowels.

 

And what the H is 'kite shielding?' :naughty: :shrug:

[CraigD]

While we’re watercoolering on kites, the threat they may pose to aircraft, our FAA’s regulatory labors to avert them, and Turtle’s labors to make sense of FAA regulations, I thought I’d throw my own “urban myth” into the thread.

 

Ca. 1980, a popular light helicopter (Avi-Caproni – I can’t find an online image) with an unusual rotor control arrangement in which, rather than the usual exposed linkages between the swash plate and rotors, all linkages were contained within the hollow mast, was promoted by noting that such an arrangement could not be impaired by being wrapped in kite string. After one of my then bosses, an enthusiastic helicopter pilot, got hold of one of these (with the vague intention of buying it), I read a review of it that related a tale of a large US navy helicopter crashing near shore off Nags Head, NC, after its rotor mast and exposed linkages were wrapped so tightly with monofilament kite string snagged from one of the beach’s many high-performance kites that its hydraulic power-assisted controls were unable to move the linkages.

 

Later, when I lived near Nags Head, working at one of the areas big sellers of kites (Kitty Hawk Kites, better known for hang gliders), I asked many people about this story. Several believed it was true, but none were witnesses, nor knew someone who was a witness, leaving me the impression that the story might be an aviation/urban myth.

 

Every helicopter pilot I’ve met find the story plausible, and say they avoid kites like death itself, but none had first-hand knowledge of a helicopter crash caused by kite (or other tethered airborne thing). I’ve found nothing with internet searches.

 

Is the “helicopter downed with kite string” story an aviation/urban myth?

And what the H is 'kite shielding?' :confused: :shrug: :eek_big:

I’ve only the faintest imaginings. More significantly, I think, why would hitting a “shielded” kite be preferable to hitting an “unshielded” one?

[TheBigDog]

I have an idea. Lets set a "World Hypography Kite Flying Day". Hypographers around the globe can fly a kite that day, and come back here with stories and pictures.

 

Turtle, would you do the honors of selecting a day?

 

As Mary Poppins would have us sing...

 

Oh, oh, oh!

Let's go fly a kite

Up to the highest height!

Let's go fly a kite and send it soaring

Up through the atmosphere

Up where the air is clear

Oh, let's go fly a kite!

 

Bill

[Turtle]

I have an idea. Lets set a "World Hypography Kite Flying Day". Hypographers around the globe can fly a kite that day, and come back here with stories and pictures.

 

Turtle, would you do the honors of selecting a day?

 

As Mary Poppins would have us sing...

 

Oh, oh, oh!

Let's go fly a kite

Up to the highest height!

Let's go fly a kite and send it soaring

Up through the atmosphere

Up where the air is clear

Oh, let's go fly a kite!

 

Bill

 

My pleasure. As wind is often not cooperative with our schedules, I suggest the first week of the New Year, Tuesday January 1st through Friday January 11th.

 

I'm a bit back on the jag as I picked up some 3/8" dowels to rework my big box kite into a rhomboid. The kite is pictured in post #32 in the square box configuration, and since that photo I removed the fabric and sewed up the rips. I need to paint the main struts before stapling the fabric back on & then I will determine a ratio for the rhombus. I'm thinking of starting with the Golden ratio. Make the kite too flat and it will get too unstable for any advantage gained in lift power. We'll see.

 

Anybody in? The date OK for a first World Hypography Kite Flying Event? :weather_snowing:

[TheBigDog]

My pleasure. As wind is often not cooperative with our schedules, I suggest the first week of the New Year, Tuesday January 1st through Friday January 11th.

 

I'm a bit back on the jag as I picked up some 3/8" dowels to rework my big box kite into a rhomboid. The kite is pictured in post #32 in the square box configuration, and since that photo I removed the fabric and sewed up the rips. I need to paint the main struts before stapling the fabric back on & then I will determine a ratio for the rhombus. I'm thinking of starting with the Golden ratio. Make the kite too flat and it will get too unstable for any advantage gained in lift power. We'll see.

 

Anybody in? The date OK for a first World Hypography Kite Flying Event? :weather_snowing:

There should be one clear day in that span here on the north coast. I will post my pictures here.

 

Bill

[DougF]

I usually fly my kite in the spring, but I'll see if I can git it in the air on the first week of the New Year.

Turtle

Care to hazard a guess what 'shielding' on a kite is

I don't have a clue what kind of shielding you would put on a kite, but after reading the posts on the FAA regulations I think I'll build a new kite and see how high I can get. :snow: