Scientific Measurement Of Spirits

[C1ay]

Moderation note: the first 14 posts of this thread were moved from the thread Can Science And Religion Coexist Peacefully, because they are a discussion of a related but different question, the existence of spirits.

 

I don't see how you can divorce spirits from spirituality! You can't see atoms but you know they exist. Then came photons and quarks and God knows what else. Science just hasn't yet discovered the way to measure the frequencies of spirits but I'm sure science will figure it out.

 

There's zero scientific evidence to support any belief in spirits or gods as factual.

Edited March 17, 2011 by CraigD
Added moderation note

[dduckwessel]

There's zero scientific evidence to support any belief in spirits or gods as factual.

 

True but other evidence suggests there's something there.

 

Infra-red photos of people reveal a field around the human body and this is often believed to be proof of an aura (spirit). I read in one of Vic Stenger's papers (I know I read the article but I can't find it now) that scientists had proved it's merely the electromagnetic field that surrounds all living things.

 

Even still, and I know this is going to sound bizzare, I recall some years ago a friend of mine was into some weird stuff and I asked her about it. She told me she would show me instead. She touched my forehead and I turned into a bunch of atoms floating in mid-air around a nucleus made of light. No one was around so I couldn't ask anyone if I changed form. This really happened! I felt like I didn't have a physical body anymore - so what happened to me?

 

I have seen aura's of pulsating (like sound coming from a stereo speaker), at different intervals, of coloured light around people and things. At least I think I have or maybe I was just seeing the electromagnetic field! Do electromagnetic meters show colours? The colours are vibrant (red, green, I assume I'm see white when I see spaces between colours).

 

So - what am I seeing? And no, I don't see little green men!!

[LaurieAG]

Hi dd,

 

Spirituality on the otherhand, blends easily with science because it doesn't try to change science to fit its beliefs but works with nature.

 

Do you know what the latin word pagan means?

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan

 

pagan (ˈpeɪɡən)

 

— n

1. a member of a group professing a polytheistic religion or any religion other than Christianity, Judaism, or Islam

2. a person without any religion; heathen

 

— adj

3. of or relating to pagans or their faith or worship

4. heathen; irreligious

 

[C14: from Church Latin pāgānus civilian (hence, not a soldier of Christ), from Latin: countryman, villager, from pāgus village]

[dduckwessel]

Hi dd,

 

 

 

Do you know what the latin word pagan means?

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan

 

Laurie,

 

Not sure where you're going with this! I have no religious affiliation so I don't know why you would think you need to remind me of what it means to be pagan!!

[C1ay]

Yaaayyyyyyy, I'm a heathen ;)

[pamela]

True but other evidence suggests there's something there.

 

Infra-red photos of people reveal a field around the human body and this is often believed to be proof of an aura (spirit). I read in one of Vic Stenger's papers (I know I read the article but I can't find it now) that scientists had proved it's merely the electromagnetic field that surrounds all living things.

 

Even still, and I know this is going to sound bizzare, I recall some years ago a friend of mine was into some weird stuff and I asked her about it. She told me she would show me instead. She touched my forehead and I turned into a bunch of atoms floating in mid-air around a nucleus made of light. No one was around so I couldn't ask anyone if I changed form. This really happened! I felt like I didn't have a physical body anymore - so what happened to me?

 

I have seen aura's of pulsating (like sound coming from a stereo speaker), at different intervals, of coloured light around people and things. At least I think I have or maybe I was just seeing the electromagnetic field! Do electromagnetic meters show colours? The colours are vibrant (red, green, I assume I'm see white when I see spaces between colours).

 

So - what am I seeing? And no, I don't see little green men!!

 

Sounds like a neurological disorder. Do you experience migraines or seizures? I think it imperative, dduckwessel, that you take an objective look at the possibility of brain activity here and not so much a spiritual outlook or even fields for that matter. Seeing auras can be a symptom of a much larger problem.

[dduckwessel]

Sounds like a neurological disorder. Do you experience migraines or seizures? I think it imperative, dduckwessel, that you take an objective look at the possibility of brain activity here and not so much a spiritual outlook or even fields for that matter. Seeing auras can be a symptom of a much larger problem.

 

Sorry to disappoint but I've never had migraines or seisures...and how do you know that seeing auras is a symptom of a problem!! Is it possible I'm using a part of my brain that people don't usually use?

[joekgamer]

Is it possible I'm using a part of my brain that people don't usually use?

That is the problem. A disorder is something that is abnormal. If you are using a different part of the brain than normal, then that is an abnormality.

 

Not all disorders are psychosis or schitzofrenia.

[pamela]

Sorry to disappoint but I've never had migraines or seisures...and how do you know that seeing auras is a symptom of a problem!! Is it possible I'm using a part of my brain that people don't usually use?

disappoint? You may have misunderstood where I was coming from. The possibility is there and basic neurology explains auras, visuals and hallucinations. I am not trying to downplay your beliefs or affend you, I am merely trying to let you see a different point of view; as well as alerting you to possible problematic situations regarding your health and well being.

Simply begging the question as far as the unknown areas of the brain, does not support your stance. Many people have claimed to see and experience many things over the years. However,when there is no empirical evidence to back it up, it remains speculative at best.

[dduckwessel]

That is the problem. A disorder is something that is abnormal. If you are using a different part of the brain than normal, then that is an abnormality.

 

Not all disorders are psychosis or schitzofrenia.

 

Thanks for the concern but I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If I had sudden urges to dress up like superman and try to fly or had debilitating headaches, it would be cause for worry. It does not impede me in any way, as anyone who has the ability will tell you and this happens to me only sporadically.

 

It would be helpful if science would take this more seriously and do brain scans of people who have this ability to see if, indeed, they are using a portion of the brain that most people don't use, or if it is a physical disorder, which I am personally convinced it's not.

[dduckwessel]

disappoint? You may have misunderstood where I was coming from. The possibility is there and basic neurology explains auras, visuals and hallucinations. I am not trying to downplay your beliefs or affend you, I am merely trying to let you see a different point of view; as well as alerting you to possible problematic situations regarding your health and well being.

Simply begging the question as far as the unknown areas of the brain, does not support your stance. Many people have claimed to see and experience many things over the years. However,when there is no empirical evidence to back it up, it remains speculative at best.

 

Terribly sorry Pamela, to misread your intent. :) Sometimes people on Hypography are sarcastic and it's difficult to know when that's not happening.

 

Can I ask what you think my beliefs are?

[Qfwfq]

It would be helpful if science would take this more seriously and do brain scans of people who have this ability to see if, indeed, they are using a portion of the brain that most people don't use, or if it is a physical disorder, which I am personally convinced it's not.

The approach would be to ask your doctor to prescribe a brain scan and whatever s/he deems necessary. If you tell him or her all about it, I sure s/he will prescribe something, at least to make sure it isn't a disorder. :)

 

If you remain unsatisfied with what the doctor prescribes, most private clinics will perform any test you're willing to pay for as long as it isn't an excessive unnecessary risk. I don't see why they would object to most common brain scans. You could even ask James Randi to subject you to his scrutiny, he's all too eager to find an explanation for these things.

 

I mean, if you didn't have the guarantee that every morning those cows would be there (and produce milk), you probably wouldn't do that kind of work because out of necessity you would be forced to look for other gainful employment.

 

Faith in something that you know works is just common sense.

Uhm, I think I got Guy's point quite well and I can even understand his view. There is no total guarantee a farmer's hard sweat will give its full returns every single year, look what happened to grain crops in Russia and Australia; jeeeez, and an all covering insurance policy can be expensive too. Takes a lot of guts and I think an ounce of faith can be one extra way that helps these people to have them.

[dduckwessel]

The approach would be to ask your doctor to prescribe a brain scan and whatever s/he deems necessary. If you tell him or her all about it, I sure s/he will prescribe something, at least to make sure it isn't a disorder. :)

 

I wouldn't be a good test subject because, as I said, I only experience this sporadically. Some people however, see these all the time and they would be good test subjects.

 

If you remain unsatisfied with what the doctor prescribes, most private clinics will perform any test you're willing to pay for as long as it isn't an excessive unnecessary risk. I don't see why they would object to most common brain scans. You could even ask James Randi to subject you to his scrutiny, he's all too eager to find an explanation for these things.

 

In order to be objective you need an open mind and I'm not sure James Randi qualifies, he seems very negative to me.

 

Uhm, I think I got Guy's point quite well and I can even understand his view. There is no total guarantee a farmer's hard sweat will give its full returns every single year, look what happened to grain crops in Russia and Australia; jeeeez, and an all covering insurance policy can be expensive too. Takes a lot of guts and I think an ounce of faith can be one extra way that helps these people to have them.

 

Good point. However, many other people are not guaranteed their jobs are going to be there the next day and in that respect I guess they too live by faith.

[pamela]

Terribly sorry Pamela, to misread your intent. :) Sometimes people on Hypography are sarcastic and it's difficult to know when that's not happening.

 

Can I ask what you think my beliefs are?

Well I am not sure I would even want to speculate on what your beliefs may be. Everyone is so different. Some take bits and pieces from many areas and create their own personal ideologies. Then there are those, who simply fall into mere acceptance and do not question. When we fail to question, whether that be any part of science or religion, we stagnate. Without questions, we would never learn. Never grow and never have gained the wealth of scientific information that we now possess. It is with open minds that the two can exist peacefully. When the mind narrows, strife occurs.

[dduckwessel]

Well I am not sure I would even want to speculate on what your beliefs may be.

 

This is my difficulty, I was not speaking about beliefs - I was talking about experiences - things that actually happened to me and I held back some things.

 

I was just putting my experiencs 'out there' because when science takes things seriously, you get to the bottom of things.

 

Granted with all the solar flares and seismic activity and the state of Japan, this is certainly not the most pressing subject on everyone's mind but perhaps I've put a bug in someone's ear.

[dduckwessel]

When we fail to question, whether that be any part of science or religion, we stagnate. Without questions, we would never learn. Never grow and never have gained the wealth of scientific information that we now possess. It is with open minds that the two can exist peacefully. When the mind narrows, strife occurs.

 

I very much agree with you. :D Stagnation is the result of people thinking they 'know all there is to know' - what they consider the really important stuff.

 

I am of the mind that we should always be learning and so expanding our knowledge. If religionists had won out and Darwin hadn't proposed the theory of evolution we would not be where we are today - so it is with beliefs that stifle imagination, creativity and the refusal to examine evidence.

 

I guess that's why I dislike organized religion, because the explanations for everything must always fall within the parameters of their beliefs rather than around the evidence itself.