What makes Creationism so hard to believe in, and evolution so easy?

[IMAMONKEY!]

Well those are all very good viewpoints and i would have to agree with them, but for my mind's peace id prefer to describe my personal views on the matter.

 

Buffy,

Being a kid i can sympathize with your daughter. I despise Christian Rock and stuff like that. It screams out "hey world! Christianity is better! we have a rock group! We are cool!". It makes me sick. Being a Christian, to me this is almost as bad as them making you pay to get into Church like they used to a long time ago. It sickens me. However, as i do believe there is some diety out there who is an observer of everything that can work INDIRECTLY with the universe, I believe in a sort of cross between the two. I think that life and evolution happened only because it was prompted by a diety, a god if you will. I also think that creationism is a bit irrational.

 

If you think about it, why would a diety create everything magically, and then somehow leave it all alone. Certainly not out of spite! something that wanted to create life certainly wouldnt want to make things suffer. it just isnt consistent. And the whole beings coming into existence can be disproved. There are skeletons out there of certain animals differing slightly from today's. An example would be woolly mammoths and elephants. We have scientific proof that the world is indeed older than 6,445 years. Creationism cannot be true because of these reasons. :( or at least, thats what i think. Its not an ultimatum, just my opinion. Like i said before. I believe in a diety called God, and i believe in evolutionism. Some people think you can't have one without the other, but i think i am quite able to have both in a compromise that fits nicely together. Stay tuned where later ill describe to you my entire view on the universe and everything as soon as i can get enough time!

 

 

MON-KEY all the way! Oh what fun it is to eat bananas every day! HEY! :(

[BEAKER]

As a police officer, I think quite often about my own death. I would much rather believe that I would be able to see my family again in heaven than that I just die out. If I were to see someone that I consider to be truly intelligent capable of believing, that would bring me to my knees.

Niviene, ..."If I were to see someone that I consider to be truly intelligent capable of believing, that would bring me to my knees". This is profound! The question then becomes: ...Since admitedly, no one knows everything, (in spite of the fact that many people would like you to believe they do); just how intelligent would someone have to be to fit the bill for you personally? If there is a God, do you think that He only "works" for those who are intelligent enough to "understand" the mysteries of life on a higher plain than the common folk? Do you think the numberless multitude of less-than "truly intelligent " peple who fill our world are doomed or lost simply because they arn't smart enough to believe intelligently?

[bumab]

Thanks for the very thoughtful reply, niviene- you are obviously an intellegent and thoughtful person yourself! The questions you raise are certainly not superficial, and I would expect everybody wrestles with them, from time to time, for their entire lives. Despite what you may hear, questioning is VITAL to belief. Don't ever swallow something without questioning it, and thinking about it as hard as you can.

 

I think most of your questions about creationism, 6 days, the virgin birth, etc have been discussed, around here, you should check them out and start a new thread if you've still got questions or points to make.

 

....I can't understand why a benevolent God would want us to suffer (even though I know why many say that is). I often feel that God either likes to play games or has a sense of humor. (If she exists... that is.) On the other side of that.... I look at how beautifully complex life and the universe are. I understand that nature has no emotion - death is a part of life, and it's not as hard to deal with (it seems) for other creatures in nature (of course they don't think like we do, but you see my point).

 

This is the crux of many arguements against God, and it's a mighty good one. Many theologians answer it quite succinctly, however- we have free will, so we can screw ourselves over (to put it bluntly). I think the best treatsie on the subject is in the Brother's Karamozov, but Fyodor Dosteyvsky in the "Grand Inquistor" chapter. It's online, a simple google search will find it. You should check it out, I enjoy reading it over and over again.

 

...but these are the things on which I constantly dwell. And, of course, many other things in the Bible. I just wonder if things were lost in translation, or if they evolved like mythology probably did into similar but greater things (much like my dad's fishing stories do...) I cannot simply go into a church and listen to a sermon and accept it like I did when I was younger. I need to know more than being led along like a sheep and told "believe it all; faith is the way." Well, I understand faith, but I can't use faith to ignore the glaring gaps and contradictions. I actually want to believe, and I can't find a way to do it. As a police officer, I think quite often about my own death. I would much rather believe that I would be able to see my family again in heaven than that I just die out. If I were to see someone that I consider to be truly intelligent capable of believing, that would bring me to my knees.

 

That's a beautiful statement. I would encourage you to keep dwelling and thinking about those questions. I certainly do, and I for one think the questioning is a good thing- as do many around here. There's also some really brilliant folk around that will help you out, they sure help me out. :( Faith (of the religious type) and science are not mutually exclusive, despite what many say, but rather different ways of knowing about the same creation (in my opinion). anyway, welcome!

[bumab]

Belief is acceptance of hearsay. Everything you need to know is layed out in all aspects of scientific thought.

 

This is a belief in itself, unless you assume that our "scientific thought" is the pinnacle of human achievement, which historically only amounts to intellectual arrogance, as all eras think they are the apex of human civilization.

[pgrmdave]

Everything you need to know is layed out in all aspects of scientific thought. You can choose to learn about many other subjects -- art, music, philosophy, sports, politics, etc... but they are not the key ingredients to your livelihood.

 

I disagree, I think that there are some things that we know that we need to know that would not fall under the realm of scientific. I know that it is wrong to kill. I know that sometimes I need to act irrationally, because acting rationally would hurt people I care about. I would have to disagree with you, LG, and even go one step furthur - scientific knowledge is not a "key ingredient to our livelihood". I think that moral knowledge, understanding of right and wrong, is much more essential. Perhaps it stems from my feeling that people should be happy, and that morality leads to people's happiness. However, science, while wonderful for gleaning knowledge, plays little part in most people's lives historically. The ancient greeks knew nothing of quantum mechanics, and they got along just fine without it. However, if we had no philosophy, if we had nothing that was able to help guide us in our quest for right and wrong, I think that our society could be disturbing, and something that I would not choose to live in. Science is wonderful, don't get me wrong, but I do not think that it is the ONLY thing that is important, and I do not think that it is necessary for the human experiance.

[niviene]

Niviene, ..."If I were to see someone that I consider to be truly intelligent capable of believing, that would bring me to my knees". This is profound! The question then becomes: ...Since admitedly, no one knows everything, (in spite of the fact that many people would like you to believe they do); just how intelligent would someone have to be to fit the bill for you personally? If there is a God, do you think that He only "works" for those who are intelligent enough to "understand" the mysteries of life on a higher plain than the common folk? Do you think the numberless multitude of less-than "truly intelligent " peple who fill our world are doomed or lost simply because they arn't smart enough to believe intelligently?

 

No, I really do not... I think that people incapable of questioning but doing what they believe to be right by whatever their version of God is (what they believe to really be right in their heart, and not just telling themselves they'll get 5 or 6 dozen virgins in heaven... I guess that's my bias) that they will make it to heaven, if such a place exists. However... I guess I feel that if a person is capable of great intellectual debate and chooses not to use what I suppose would be a gift from said God, that would be an offense. If I were God, I would prefer that people think greatly about it before deciding.. kind of "always questioning" rather than blindly believing. Why else would any God go through with all of this? There is always someone who then asks me, "Oh, so you mean the people who brought down the trade towers would go to heaven?" In my opinion, I don't really know why they did it, but if they really thought that it was right by their religion, then I would say yes. When is the last time anyone was willing to give their life for something? They must have really believed in their cause. Kamikaze pilots gave their lives killing US troops defending what they believed to be the right cause. I know that some people do things for the wrong reasons... but if I went to war, I would only give up my life for a cause I truly believed to be the right thing in my mind. I think that any benevolent God would accept those people who lived a life doing what they thought to be right. (Don't get me into the debate into what is right or wrong - I think this is relative to the beholder.)

 

At times I am jealous of those who are able to believe whole-heartedly. It must be nice. Iknow this sounds bad, but sometimes I think "Ignorance is bliss" towards those same people I am sometimes jealous of, though. Sometimes I just wonder, "what if they knew more... what if they were capable of understanding more about the universe or how things work? would they still believe?" These same people think that praying to God will help them, but what about the "divine plan"? I can't see myself praying to ask for things... but I can see myself thanking God, the chaos theory, or whatever it is, that my seemingly good fortune happened along that plan.

 

To answer your question, what would fit the bill for me as far as who I would say is truly intelligent that would really move me... this is almost like asking how I define the "perfect" person... it is not easy. This person would be knowledgeable about science and theology; extremely open minded to all possibilities; capable of adapting to changing scientific progress rather than waving it off as impossible, irrelevant, or a conspiracy; someone who does not dismiss or ignore scientific facts in order to make sure all of the elements from religion fit in... someone who would hear a valid question about a contradiction and need time to think about it rationally without simply saying, "this is something we accept based on faith alone." Perhaps this person believes in the bible or parts of it, or perhaps he or she does not. This is the type of person I would need to lead me into believing. It would have to be someone I respect intellectually, and more than that (obviously I respect my brother's intellect, but that's not enough). I hope this answers your question.. it's hard to form a concise answers to your question.

 

What about you? What is it that you believe? Are you on the same page as me at all? Is anyone?

 

*hears crickets chirping...* :(

[bumab]

This person would be knowledgeable about science and theology; extremely open minded to all possibilities; capable of adapting to changing scientific progress rather than waving it off as impossible, irrelevant, or a conspiracy; someone who does not dismiss or ignore scientific facts in order to make sure all of the elements from religion fit in... someone who would hear a valid question about a contradiction and need time to think about it rationally without simply saying, "this is something we accept based on faith alone."

 

I think (at least hope) you'll find people like this here and in other places too, if you look :hihi:

[BEAKER]

:hihi: Remember, they just might have good intentions at heart, even if it comes out all wrong and causes problems.

I love this quote from Bumab (from the "does anyone really believe" thread). Everyone want's to think that if a person really believes in God, that he or she should have a good enough connection to what His will is to totally avoid the many (seemingly to us) obvious and grandios failures that we have all seen in many cases, and in every diverse religion, sect, cult, etc. Fundamental christian as well as every other "god" group the world has to offer. Why would God allow people who apparently are seeking His will to be so decieved? There are no easy answers to this question, but that doesn't mean that the answers arn't there. The bible says that God is a decerner of the thought and intents of the heart of every man. In other words He knows why you do what you do, and it's more important to Him than the act itself.

 

I believe it is a blessing from God to have a mind capable of asking so many great and relevent quesions. I believe choosing to be ignorant about genuine concerns instead of asking the tough questions is a slap in the face to the great and mighty God who made you capeable of asking those questions; and burrying those questions under a supposedly "greater weight" of scientific knowledge is like Bumab said earlier in this thread - "intellectual arrogance".

 

At times I am jealous of those who are able to believe whole-heartedly. It must be nice. Iknow this sounds bad, but sometimes I think "Ignorance is bliss" towards those same people I am sometimes jealous of, though. Sometimes I just wonder, "what if they knew more... what if they were capable of understanding more about the universe or how things work? would they still believe?"

Don't you believe it! Everyone is able; everyone chooses; and no one does it perfectly. The bible also says that "the heart of man is decietfull above all things and desperately wicked - who can understand it."

 

I was going to say earlier (before I started having problems with my battery powered keyboard), that in regard to the whole issue of ..."who is intellegent enough to lead the intellectuals" issue - That to me; this is the marvelous beauty and sublime wisdom of God: That (according to the bible), salvation is exclusively by faith. Not by intellect; not by knowledge; not by skill; not by effort; not by works; not by social status; not by heritage; not by any other path than the road set before us which is the road to calvary - where Jesus died for our sins.

 

There is, nor could ever be any greater equalizer to all people everwhere.

[Zohaar818]

What makes creation so difficult, that one has so much trouble believing it?

 

I read all about the theories that evolution is made of,

I read all about the theory that creation clames to be true.

 

What do you believe is true, and why? and why not the other?

 

In brief, the problem with Creation Theory is that it presupposes a Creator..whom we are not unlike. And besdies that the dates are wrong.

Havin g said that, I can't accoun t for many unexplained riddles in the fossil record, not to mention many corresponding sciences..the overlapping of myths from distant and removed cultures both in geography and time..or even a good part of the recent evolutiobary record without presupposing alien intervention in the affairs of mankind.

You know for a guy who built the universe [multiverse?!] to spend so much time with ape descendants on a distant orb far removed from the center of this most modest galaxy, and put them through a series of behavioral science experiments..and behavioral modification therapies..while seeming to have a thirst for the blood of cattle and a high esteem for gold..[not to mention some rather god-like fits of vanity, speaking volumes of an inferiority complex underlying the obsession to be all powerful..yada yada]..it seems a bit much.

I also don't accept most creationist theory on the grounds it is based on a book which is a composite and highly edited version cobbled together rather recently..a good many books which you'll find under Apocryphal texts [like the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas] were left out of the copy most Judeo- Christians carry or think they know.

I doubt the Creationists know how, when and under what circumstances the Bible was created..so forgive me for not buying the dogma that emanates from such..um..unfamiliarity with the truth of things.

Even the jews, of which I am one..an accident of birth I assure you, but what to do...even our rabbis will assure one and all that no one was ever supposed to take the Torah at face value and that texts were used with codes woven in that demanded the earnest study in order to fathom. And Hebrew, one of the three main languages of ancient scripture is a 3d language..whereas English is only one dimensional and therefore you miss the point again and again when trying to make sense of it .by..what do they call it..lthe guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Don't get me wrong, I will not argue against faith in a higher power..I do not dismiss out of hand any religion or creed if it helps the believer sleep in peace at night, especially with his neighbours.

But back to my point about the interference in our natural evolution..the Bible is full of references to such and to believe in Creationism in the orhtodox reading of scripture [as in the true word of God] then take it on faith that angels found human females attractive and had their pick to mate with, against God's orders as it says in genesis 6. They bore children and ..well wouldn't that be like ..a classic violation of the prime directive?

 

To be fair, the darwinists haven't put all the pieces together ..and in fact a lot of the softer sciences are largely content to ignore the anomalies [like human footprints next to those of a dinosaur dating from way, way back..so what was it dinosaurs died recently or humans have been around for millions of years/..] than to reconsider the hard science that casts their theories in doubt about some things.

 

But to invent as a n explanation that this is all the work of a Creator in the Biblical sense, one powerful enough and wise enough...who created everything in the Universe..a place so big that his favorite creatures, us, could never truly appreciate its dimensions and mysteries..seems a bit. ..what's the phrase...ah yes..'over the top'.. for a being supposedly responsible for Intelligent Design.

That's my humble opinion to which I hope no one takes umbrage.

-Sincerely

Zohaar

[lindagarrette]

This is a belief in itself, unless you assume that our "scientific thought" is the pinnacle of human achievement, which historically only amounts to intellectual arrogance, as all eras think they are the apex of human civilization.

Scientific knowledge is always expanding. Religion is stagnant. Especially Christian religion: the Bible, that's it.

[C1ay]

Scientific knowledge is always expanding. Religion is stagnant. Especially Christian religion: the Bible, that's it.

I think maybe that which some attribute to religion is shrinking actually. As science explains more and more of what religion used to explain, religion ebbs. Kind of like the way the sun god and the fire god went away after science explained them.

[bumab]

Scientific knowledge is always expanding.

 

Knowledge is always expanding. Scientific thought is simply a system, and is seperate from the knowledge it produces. It is the best way we have for getting knowledge about the natural world at the moment, and knowing about objective reality. Who's to say that won't change? It's changed before.

 

Religion is stagnant. Especially Christian religion: the Bible, that's it.

 

Without getting into a new discussion, I'll just say that if you think the Bible is all there is to the Christian religion, I think you are sorely misinformed. I imagine you'd get the same response if you told a Buddist their religion was simply sitting and chanting with their eyes closed. It's rediculous.

[niviene]

I think (at least hope) you'll find people like this here and in other places too, if you look :hihi:

 

I have (I believe) found people like that here... and that's why I keep coming back. I have seen a lot of great arguments (even great arguments about things I would not normally consider to have any validity). There are always one or two everywhere who (much like my father) simply say "absolutely, or absolutely not"; but most of the people I've been observing are intelligent and accepting of other opinions without degrading or dismissing them. One of the things that makes this forum different from the many, many others I have been to. :xx:

 

That (according to the bible), salvation is exclusively by faith. Not by intellect; not by knowledge; not by skill; not by effort; not by works; not by social status; not by heritage; not by any other path than the road set before us which is the road to calvary - where Jesus died for our sins.

 

This I do believe, to some degree... I'm sure that faith is required. My concern is blind faith. I do not think that belief without questioning contradicting findings is the way. Perhaps God wanted it to be more difficult for those with a stronger capacity for reasoning. This is something I struggle with every day. But, I don't want this to turn into a solution for my struggles - this is something I have to come to terms with, I suppose.

 

I suppose it all falls in with the apple. I don't understand why God put the tree there; he wanted us to face temptation, and ignore knowledge? He wanted us to have the capacity for intelligent reason, but not use it? Or do you think it is a metaphor for something else? It certainly could have many meanings, metaphorically...

[BEAKER]

I'm sure that faith is required. My concern is blind faith. I do not think that belief without questioning contradicting findings is the way. Perhaps God wanted it to be more difficult for those with a stronger capacity for reasoning.

I suppose it all falls in with the apple. I don't understand why God put the tree there; he wanted us to face temptation, and ignore knowledge? He wanted us to have the capacity for intelligent reason, but not use it? Or do you think it is a metaphor for something else? It certainly could have many meanings, metaphorically...

First of all I wanted to let you know there is a thread called blind faith; you might want to parruse some of the disscussion in there. But as far as the apple - big missconception. it was the "fruit of the knowledge of good and evil". Was it a metaphore? I believe personally that it was an actual historical event with metaphorical implications for all people. Maybe it was an apple, but if so it could have been anything edible. the issue was man's proclivity to dissregard God's comand.

[bumab]

My concern is blind faith. I do not think that belief without questioning contradicting findings is the way. Perhaps God wanted it to be more difficult for those with a stronger capacity for reasoning.

 

I'd be concerned about blind faith as well! As for more difficult... perhaps. Or it could be that those with a stronger capacity for reasoning (or more intellegent, or whatever) are simply more apt to be prideful in their abilities, and decide "we don't need God! we've got [insert any idea here]!" It's been said intellgent folk are easier to deceive then simple folk, because you can play to their "intellectual superiority." It's been shown true many times when intellgent people were deceived by reasonable arguments to believe crazy stuff.

 

You'd probably get some interesting responses if you started a thread on that topic in the religous forum, whenever it's up! I'd certainly be interested, there's a lot of intellegent people here.

 

I suppose it all falls in with the apple. I don't understand why God put the tree there; he wanted us to face temptation, and ignore knowledge? He wanted us to have the capacity for intelligent reason, but not use it? Or do you think it is a metaphor for something else? It certainly could have many meanings, metaphorically...

 

Good question. It's almost certainly a metaphor, given the way it was written (ask others about that one, I'm not the expert around here). The book Ishmael interprits it as an agricultural/nomadic shift in philosophy, for example. Others call it the moment free will was granted. I don't know! :hihi: Good questions to think about, that's for sure.

[BEAKER]

I don't understand why God put the tree there; he wanted us to face temptation, and ignore knowledge?

I believe that the situation was orchestrated to teach us that we don't need knowledge as much as we need His love.:hihi:

[Fishteacher73]

IMO it is a metaphor used by the church to illustrate that to seek knowledge is wrong and allowed the church to exert its power. Just like it used Latin and illiteracy. It did not want the "commoners" to have the ability to read and interpret the Bible themselves. It is an illustration of what "god" whats his followers to be like. Children oblivious to the nature of the world and easily controlled.