Infinity Will Drive You Crazy

[Laurim]

Below is a stream-of-conscience style way of thinking about infinity. I'll write a brief summary:

 

Trying to truly understand infinity forces us into a loop of thought.

1. As soon as we believe we understand infinity, we are forced to realize there also must be a possibility we don't (by definition of infinity).

2. However, understanding statement "1" would lead us to think we DO understand the infinite possibilities of "yes or no."

3. Since statement "2" claims we DO understand infinite, we must think back to "1" and follow that same logic.

 

But this train of thought is infinite, and truly trying to understand it is the most confusing thing ever. No matter what people say below, there is also a possibility that they WOULDNT have posted. Now this goes BACK to statement 2 above (either it happened or it didnt) and I get sucked in again thinking I understand infinity. It really is mind blowing to think this way.

 

Well here is my attempted deeper explanation. It's just me writing my thoughts for a few minutes. Try and follow if you want lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would like to define my theory as “Infinite Thought.” The funny thing about infinite thought though, is that the very idea cannot be proven or disproven, nor can it even be truly named. In fact, even comprehending it would drive a person mad. So hopefully, you don’t understand the rest of this article. Even writing this, I already feel this “infinite thought” taking over and it’s becoming harder to write this.

 

The basis for infinite thought comes from the idea that there are infinite universes. Since this is an increasingly accepted idea in physics, we’ll assume it’s true.

 

Another big idea behind Infinite thought is the binary system. Either there is a 1 or a 0. We can program supercomputers with nothing but a stream of 1s and 0s. Instead of using numbers though, we will use either “yes” or “no”.

 

Now back to the idea of infinite universes. This is a tricky thing because they can almost prove themselves if you let them. Now, let’s assume you as the reader DO NOT believe in infinite universes. Now, imagine a world that is identical to the one now, except the only difference is that you DO believe in infinite universes. Now, since we just proved that two different universes could exist, we can also think that way about any situation, choice, belief we’ve had. That would lead us to an infinite number of universes.

 

A lot of the madness imagining infinity comes from the “what if”. Unfortunately these “what if” statements form a loop of theories and ideas. Even I writing this now am stuck in one of those loops. I added the last sentence of the first paragraph just now. That was a choice. And like last paragraph, there exists a world where I did not choose to insert this. There also exists a world where I never would have started thinking like this. These different choices go back to the binary system from paragraph 3 and the infinite universes from paragraph 2. Now even the fact that I’m bringing these last two paragraphs into this new paragraph proves the beginning of this paragraph (loops of theories and ideas).

 

The rest of the article, I’m going to attempt to follow one of these loops. The problem with these is you use so much outside information to verify your own claims that it’s very individualized.

 

Sphere of Infinities:

First off, the problem with loop is that there is no beginning or end. In fact, you can jump around through this whole “loop of thought” going to any other part along it at any time. So it may be better to call it a “sphere of ideas” or “sphere of thought”. I sometimes wonder if this is the “universal law” that governs all of us. I’m almost certain the answer is no, but by the definition of infinite universes, there MUST exist a world in which my system of loops “IS” the universal law. I’m torn between these two because I don’t know which to believe. It’s not like I can believe both. But again, there’s a world in which I CAN believe both. So which do I exist in? And why am I allowed to contemplate which one I want to be in? Surely I shouldn’t be able to believe both. But there is a world out there in which I can. Which also means there is a world in which I did not exist, a world in which I am God, and a world in which God is beyond infinity. The fact that I can sit back and imagine that God is beyond all this comprehension comforts me. But at the same time, there’s a world where I’m not comforted. And I want to help comfort myself. But I cant. But I cant ever say cant because there IS a world in which I could comfort my other universe’s being. And why couldn’t I be in this other universe? And now I’m back to the infinite universes! How can I even know which one I am truly in? Maybe I exist in an entirely different world only as a dream to an unknown creature. Who’s to say it isn’t true? Surely there is a world in which it is. The concept of infinity will drive you crazy wondering what is true. What is reality? What is my purpose? All these can be defined an infinite number of ways. An infinity within an infinity. This can be described as 8*8. However, you can do this an infinite number of times. So it becomes 8^8. Now, you can always take that infinity to another infinity. Then take that to another infinity. And I feel like I cannot leave it alone because I haven’t yet truly described infinity. This drives me crazy that I cannot truly ever describe infinity. However, there IS a universe where I CAN describe infinite. That’s the whole idea of infinite is that I CAN do anything somehow in another world.

 

Maybe I’m just obsessive compulsive. I’ve never been tested. But it would be believable. I obsess over trying to describe infinity. And since this can never be done… Or can it? Do I exist in one of the infinite number of worlds in which I CAN describe it? I have to find out. This leads me back AGAIN to trying and contemplate which universe is real. The whole thing really irritates me! But there’s no way through it! Because I chose to believe in infinite universes, I feel the need to understand it. And understanding it is impossible. Unless I am God. Which reminds me of the sentence from the previous chapter and makes me want to comfort my “atheistic other self” (or rather selves). Now I’m stuck in one of these infinite loops! I cannot stop going back to try and verify that I HAVE been able to “feel infinity”. But this in and of itself is impossible. Because by definition of infinity, there is a chance I HAVENT. But now, the fact that I just realized this, means maybe I’m special and actually CAN. But now I’m back to my previous sentence! But then I just realized again that I cant! So maybe I can THIS TIME. But now I’m on a constant step up in which I verify I understand everything “below me” in infinity. But this infinite number of times I can prove and disprove myself IS infinite! So maybe I HAVE figured it out. But then again, maybe I haven’t…

 

The funny thing about this is, no matter what any else says about it, I can disprove them. If they say- “this is stupid”, then I could just respond back- “Well if you truly understood the above, you would know there is ALSO a possible world in which you did not post this.” And therefore I’m trapped in my infinite universe train of thought.

[Deepwater6]

I spend alot of time thinking about this, and no I don't think it's a stupid post. If anybody claims to know everything about infinity they have not thought about it long enough. I can get through about 4-5 of these loops as you call them. After that it starts to overtake my comprehension. The one good thing about thinking of infinity is when you get done thinking about it your everyday problems seem insignificant to say the least, and in the scope of infinity they are.

 

Deepwater

[CraigD]

Welcome to hypography, Laurim! :)

 

I would like to define my theory as “Infinite Thought.” The funny thing about infinite thought though, is that the very idea cannot be proven or disproven, nor can it even be truly named. In fact, even comprehending it would drive a person mad.

Thinking about various kinds of infinity is fun, and to the best of my knowledge, won’t in and of itself drive you mad. It’s easy to get the impression that it will, because the collection of people who arguably think about it most, mathematicians, include some famous insane people (eg my personal favorite, Kurt Godel), but I believe the general consensus is that insane folk gravitate toward math, not that math drives sane folk insane.

 

On the subject of mind-harming ideas, you might enjoy the 1981 short story The Riddle of the Universe and Its Solution. It’s worth reading, IMHO, in its original publishing context, the anthology The Mind’s I, but can be read online here. This story is commonly considered of a theme with the 1992 novel Snow Crash, also IMHO a worthwhile read, though SC’s title mind failure is more neurological than cognitive, so less related, I think, to your idea.

 

I recommend you not call your idea a theory in science forums, as this word has a specific scientific meaning – in short, an explanation of some observable phenomena that allows one to make predictions that can, at least in principle if not practically, be tested, such that a failed prediction falsifies the theory. Scientific theories are all fundamentally not provable, only disprovable (this wikipedia article is a good a starting place for more about this) Rather, I’d call it a philosophical idea, and spare yourself repeated correction by science types like me. :)

 

The basis for infinite thought comes from the idea that there are infinite universes. Since this is an increasingly accepted idea in physics, we’ll assume it’s true.

I guess that you’re referring to the many-world interpretation of quantum mechanics. There are at least a couple of important cautions to have when approaching the MWI:

 

First, it’s a scientific interpretation. Interpretations of scientific theories aren’t actually theories in themselves, but, in essence (and IMHO), approaches to better intuitive understanding of theories. By definition, an interpretation can’t predict anything different than the theory it interprets – but it can help theorists to make better choices in using the theory to make predictions, avoiding blind alleys and picking rich, productive lines of inquiry. The distinction between theory and interpretation of theory is a difficult and subtle one, however, that even many well-educated scientists and philosophers often fail to appreciate. For the dedicated science enthusiast, generalist, and all-round renaissance person, however, understanding the distinction is critical.

 

Last, the MWI doesn’t predict an infinite number of universes, only many. Under it, the “multiverse” splits whenever a measurement of a particle is made, but there are a finite number of particles in the universe, and limits on how precisely and often measurements of them can be made. Calculating this number is difficult and controversial, but in principle possible. The distinction between a staggeringly large number, and an infinite number of universe, is also a subtle one, often unappreciated by even well-educated specialists, but again, a critical one.

 

Now, let’s assume you as the reader DO NOT believe in infinite universes. Now, imagine a world that is identical to the one now, except the only difference is that you DO believe in infinite universes. Now, since we just proved that two different universes could exist, we can also think that way about any situation, choice, belief we’ve had. That would lead us to an infinite number of universes.

The MWI is not about imagination or belief. Neither it nor quantum mechanics predict or suggest that any world imaginable exists. In particular, it cannot predict that the objective existence of a universe in which the predictions of quantum mechanics fail.

 

The MWI does support your assertion, Laurim, that there exists a universe in which everything is identical to this one, except the collection of particles constituting your brain that DOES believe in something differs from the corresponding collection of particles in our universe constituting your brain that DOES NOT believe in that thing.

 

However, you err critically, I think, in concluding that this implies an infinite number of universe in the MWI multiverse, because in doing so, you assume that your brain can have an infinite number of states. This is not true. The brain consists of a very large, but finite, number of particles, capable of having a very large, but finite, number of states. Categories of collections of these states correspond to believing of not believing in various ideas. Thus, while its common to believe that there is an infinitude of human thoughts, there are not, only a very large, finite number of them.

 

A final important feature of the MWI: with a few esoteric exceptions in which it’s not truly an interpretation of QM, the many universe of the MWI cannot interact. Thus, while ontologically real, they’re entirely immeasurable, and irrelevant , to us, which a pragmatist might argue is equivalent to them not existing.