Time Dilation & The First Galaxies

[CarlNGraham]

As far as I understand, time dilation corresponding to redshift has been confirmed for distant supernova.

However, galaxies are being detected only 480 million years after the bigbang at redshifts of around 10 or more.

 

Does this mean they took less than 45 million years to form in real time?

[modest]

Agreed on time dilation being confirmed by supernova such that a supernova at z=1 takes twice as long according to our clock.

 

I think the answer, according to the standard model and whatnot, is that 480 million years is indeed real time. 480 million years passed for an observer who would have been in the area of the forming galaxy from T=0 to T=0.48 Gyrs. But, if we watched the galaxy form from our current location it would take longer than 0.48 Gyrs (according to our clock) to see the same process unfold.

 

Does that make sense?

 

By the way, do you have a link of a mature galaxy that young? That would be a real indication that something fishy is going on.

 

~modest

 

EDIT: By "that young" I mean 480 million years.

[fahrquad]

As far as I understand, time dilation corresponding to redshift has been confirmed for distant supernova.

However, galaxies are being detected only 480 million years after the bigbang at redshifts of around 10 or more.

 

Does this mean they took less than 45 million years to form in real time?

 

It was my understanding that that observation was pointed to as proof that the expansion of the universe was accelerating.

[CarlNGraham]

I forgot about light travel distance already acounting for time dilation.

But it did get me a bit worried for a while.

[JMJones0424]

By the way, do you have a link of a mature galaxy that young? That would be a real indication that something fishy is going on.

 

 

Came across this while wandering elsewhere, Modest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UDFj-39546284

"UDFj-39546284 is a compact galaxy of blue stars that existed as we see it 13.2 billion years ago, around 480 million years after the Big Bang. It is the oldest galaxy found as of 26 January 2011 and exceeds the previous distance record holder by roughly 150 million years."

[Cyberia]

Time dilation as we call it seems to only work as far as six billion light years away:

 

 

http://www.physorg.com/news190027752.html

 

 

The fact that it does not work further back suggests it may be something else.

 

As we get better and better technology, we are discovering earlier things that we dd not believe possible like a two billion light solar mass quasar just 770 million years after the BB when it was thought that such things would not exist till well over half a billion years later.

[modest]

Time dilation as we call it seems to only work as far as six billion light years away:

 

 

http://www.physorg.com/news190027752.html

 

 

The fact that it does not work further back suggests it may be something else.

That is interesting. Since time dilation shows itself in distant gamma ray bursts it is strange and surprising that distant quasars wouldn't show it. I would wonder if the quasars evolve—slowing down—over time as they gobble up mass. I'm surprised I've never heard of the study.

[CarlNGraham]

That is interesting. Since time dilation shows itself in distant gamma ray bursts it is strange and surprising that distant quasars wouldn't show it. I would wonder if the quasars evolve—slowing down—over time as they gobble up mass. I'm surprised I've never heard of the study.

I think I would also go with the quasars all forming at the same time and slowing as they age.

Their brightness does show time dilation slowing the rate of photons reaching us.

[Cyberia]

That is interesting. Since time dilation shows itself in distant gamma ray bursts it is strange and surprising that distant quasars wouldn't show it. I would wonder if the quasars evolve—slowing down—over time as they gobble up mass. I'm surprised I've never heard of the study.

 

I find it strange that GRB's are always very far away. As gravity produces the same redshift as something moving away from us, maybe a good part of what they are measuring is from the central black hole so they are not so far away and not so incredibly powerful?

[Cyberia]

I think I would also go with the quasars all forming at the same time and slowing as they age.

Their brightness does show time dilation slowing the rate of photons reaching us.

 

Quasars like galaxies involve super massive black holes. Originally it was thought that such SMBH's did not form till around 1400 million years after the BB but we have since found quasars just 770 million years after the BB. The fact that we have found galaxies (mini ones) even older suggests that they may have formed much earlier, maybe just 300 million years after as some have theorised.

[tommtomm]

Quasars like galaxies involve super massive black holes. Originally it was thought that such SMBH's did not form till around 1400 million years after the BB but we have since found quasars just 770 million years after the BB. The fact that we have found galaxies (mini ones) even older suggests that they may have formed much earlier, maybe just 300 million years after as some have theorised.

 

IMO, time is a property of discrete matter and passes inversly proportional to an object's speed. If time passes slower for galaxies accelerating away from us, doesn't that complicate our time measurements from our POV?

Edited July 2, 2012 by tommtomm

[Cyberia]

The idea is that the distance between objects in space is increasing and that (other than local movements) the objects themselves are not moving.

 

A balloon being blown up, with spots marked on it to represent galaxies, is used to demonstrate what happens.

 

But yes, there are galaxies accelerating away from us as the Andromeda galaxy is heading towards us.

 

Like all objects in our galaxy, the Earth and Sun are moving fast in their orbits (some 560,000 mph) so everything in our galaxy and in the universe should have some time dilation associated with it since I don't think anything is actually at rest.

[tommtomm]

What I referred to was our ability to obtain correct speed measurements of distant galaxies moving away from us as space grows between us. If time dilation can only be determined between two or more objects moving at different speeds relative to each other, the effects are observed as red or blueshifts, and we can see if they're coming or going, but how can we determine their true age if the shift amounts, i.e., the time dilations, are based solely on our speed and theirs?

 

If the rate of the passage of time varies between objects inversely proportional to the difference in their speeds, we can only measure our speed against theirs, and our findings can only apply to their speed and ours, but not between them and other objects not moving at our speed. Then the measurements will be different than ours, so which is correct?

 

I agree time dilations are universe-wide, but only between objects moving at different speeds. Those moving at the same speed as any other objects all over the universe will have the same time rate.

Edited July 8, 2012 by tommtomm

[CarlNGraham]

I think the idea is that it is only our view of these objects that is time dilated, not the objects themselves.

As space expands the light travel distance to these objects increases, each photon from an object takes longer to reach us than the last.

This slows down our view of distance galaxies, not the galaxies its self.

[tommtomm]

I think the idea is that it is only our view of these objects that is time dilated, not the objects themselves.

As space expands the light travel distance to these objects increases, each photon from an object takes longer to reach us than the last.

This slows down our view of distance galaxies, not the galaxies its self.

Yes, I thought of that too until I realized there is no real "time dilation" paradox (or any paradox), once the mystery of it is resolved. The correct resolution to any mystery takes it from the paradox realm into physical reality. I think then the difference in time rates is not a "dilation, "warp," "bending," or anything else that time or space cannot physically impose equally on all objects, but it is instead a physical fact that time is a property of matter with rates inversely proportional to an object's speed, and thus time rates vary as per physical law and not as imaginary acts.

 

That fact resolves every known issue or "paradox" about time.

Edited July 11, 2012 by tommtomm

[zhou jian]

Came across this while wandering elsewhere, Modest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UDFj-39546284

"UDFj-39546284 is a compact galaxy of blue stars that existed as we see it 13.2 billion years ago, around 480 million years after the Big Bang. It is the oldest galaxy found as of 26 January 2011 and exceeds the previous distance record holder by roughly 150 million years."

 

 

Analytical cosmology view:

 

 

1. Because of its redshift z = 10, so its distance is 12，519，982，602 light-years away(12.52 billion light-years)

 

2. Because of its depending on the magnitude mv = 28.9 mag (H=28.9), so it absolute magnitude is Mv = -18.934 mag

 

3. Because of its absolute magnitude is Mv = -18.934 mag, so Zhou Jian function based on calculation on getting it to the size of the galaxy is D = 31,397 light-years

 

See Zhou Jian star chart 2012073:http://scienceforums.com/blog/479/entry-472-zhou-jian-star-chart-2012073-redshift-z-10-of-galaxies-udfj-39546284-only-30000-light-years-size/