Does anyone actually believe???

[Buffy]

Buffy walked in the quagmire of "eschatology", the discussion of what happens in the "end times". And it was an elegant attempt Buff, but I took Rockytriton's question to be more related to what happens to us now, versus at then "end".

I jumped ahead two steps, true, but I've got a habit of doing that... The interesting thing is that these "intolerant Christians" (paralleling the extremist sects in all the worlds major religions of course), will tell you that if you die before the Rapture, you at least won't have to go through the "end-times" but you still get a "Go to Jail, Go Directly to Jail, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200" card....

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Biochemist]

I have a feeling that if the whole story of Jesus is true, then he will give those people who have lived a "good" life and have not been exposed to him a chance to accept him when they die.

Maybe. But I think God's primary objectives are not to help people at some point in the future. I think He works to connect to people now.

I seem to remember reading something in the bible a while ago where he said that he may accept someone who has been immoral and is truley regretful but he may reject someone who lived their whole life for him and did not give a good example to others....

There are a couple of examples like this in different contexts. Generally, God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Oops. Quoted a verse. 1 Pet 5:5

[Biochemist]

I jumped ahead two steps, true, but I've got a habit of doing that...

You are just a very foresightful woman.

The interesting thing is that these "intolerant Christians"... will tell you that if you die before the Rapture, you at least won't have to go through the "end-times" but you still get a "Go to Jail, Go Directly to Jail, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200" card....

True, some folks believe that. Fortunately for me, this type of discussion has not been a significant fraction of my Christian discourse.

[lindagarrette]

Maybe. But I think God's primary objectives are not to help people at some point in the future. I think He works to connect to people now. There are a couple of examples like this in different contexts. Generally, God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Oops. Quoted a verse. 1 Pet 5:5

You may think so but the literature states pretty clearly that God's objectives are to reward people in the future (after they are dead) for their faith. Meanwhile he causes misery and suffering so people will worship him and pray for relief in the present.

[Queso]

if you think about it...it's set up so perfectly.

all the misery and suffering supposively caused by him, can be fixed by him if you worship him. and if you don't worship him, eternal damnation!

 

it's a closed-minded vortex of wasted life. whatever makes you happy though.. :xx:

[Biochemist]

... Meanwhile he causes misery and suffering so people will worship him and pray for relief in the present.

I am sure you have some "literature" references to back up this position? Do be sure to demonstrate causality by the scientific method.

[Queso]

the bible, no?

[bumab]

I assume LG was referencing the book of Job, which has been brought up before. Job was mostly likely written as a poetical piece, and most likely pre-dates much of the Bible. It does present a difficulty, however anything more then a superficial reading will show the book is more about perseverence, faith, and human nature then about a malignant God.

 

Secondly, that is a single possible objection, whereas the VAST majority of the Bible obviously supports Bio's position, and the rest supports it in a more subtle and sophisticated way (i.e. Job). I'm not dismissing the difficulty of some passages, but rather cautioning over simplistic readings to support a position.

[Biochemist]

the bible, no?

If I understand LG's previous post, she was suggesting that God causes misery intentionally, apparently to accure dependent worshippers. I was hoping she could offer where she heard/read that.

[Biochemist]

I assume LG was referencing the book of Job, which has been brought up before. ..

I admit Job is a little hard to figure out, but even there God did not cause Job's misery. It is not obvious (to me) why He allowed Satan to directly antagonize Job, but in the end, Job's fortumes were doubled (in life). Linda was suggesting that God gives us misery now and only rewards us post mortem. I was hoping she could tell us where she got that notion.

[rockytriton]

I was assuming that she was talking about how Jesus would tell you to "turn the other cheek" and basically put up with bad situations and respect the people that do harm to you because you will be rewarded in the afterlife. This isn't God causing the problems, but a lot of people tend to blame God whenever something bad happens, saying that he willed it to happen or whatever. :xx:

[Buffy]

I am sure you have some "literature" references to back up this position? Do be sure to demonstrate causality by the scientific method.

• Pat Robertson: "I would warn Orlando that you're right in the way of some serious hurricanes and I don't think I'd be waving those flags in God's face if I were you... A condition like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It'll bring about terrorist bombs; it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor."
  
• Jerry Falwell on AIDS (1987, since "apologized" for, but not retracted): "A God who hates sin has stopped [homosexuality] dead in its tracks by saying, ‘Do it and die."
  
• James Dobson: "Homosexuals are not monogamous. They want to destroy the institution of marriage. It will destroy marriage. It will destroy the Earth."
  
• Randall Terry: "If the militant homosexuals succeed in their accursed agenda, God will curse and judge our nation.."
  
• Pastor Fred Phelps: Just about all of his lovely site: http://www.godhatesfags.com
  

Its really not the Bible, its the people ordained by God to spread his word....The folks above have big followings and large budgets...

 

Amazed,

Buffy

[rockytriton]

I can't imagine that your average Christian or even your average Church agrees with any of those guys though.

[Buffy]

I can't imagine that your average Christian or even your average Church agrees with any of those guys though.

Its very hard to believe (kinda like Special Relativity!), but I say follow the money: these guys have *huge* lobbying organizations and budgets, and there's a certain segment of the Republican party leadership that jumps in their laps whenever requested. Go figure. Its also interesting to drive around the "flyover" country in the US and tune into the religious talk stations (I do going on my frequent trips between LA and San Francisco going by places like Fresno, Modesto and Bakersfield), I'd recommend you try it: Its not all this bad, but you hear enough of it to know that there's lots of people who do view the world this way. I, like Bio and you, hope its a minority...

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Biochemist]

Its really not the Bible, its the people ordained by God to spread his word....

I can certainly identify with your discomfort with these gents. I, however, am not sure it is reasonable to blame human bevariors on God.

[Biochemist]

I can't imagine that your average Christian or even your average Church agrees with any of those guys though.

I suspect that is true, although among the list that Buffy posted, Dobson is generally well regarded. He has become dramatically more politically oriented in the last decade, to the dismay of many.

[Biochemist]

...there's a certain segment of the Republican party leadership that jumps in their laps whenever requested....

There you go again...:xx: