Does anyone actually believe???

[Buffy]

I can certainly identify with your discomfort with these gents. I, however, am not sure it is reasonable to blame human bevariors on God.

I can only go by their own assertions that they speak directly to God and follow Her instructions!

 

Of course the fact that they all keep refering to God as "Him" is a dead giveaway to me that they don't know him from Eve! :xx:

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Buffy]

There you go again*...:xx:

You note I *did* qualify it properly, and when was the last time you saw a Democrat show up at a James Dobson hootnanny? Oddly, the closest one recently has been Hillary! :)

 

Cheers,

Buffy

* Ronald Reagan, 1980 Presidential Debate

[Biochemist]

You note I *did* qualify it properly...

Actually, I did notice. I was quite proud of you.:xx:

[rockytriton]

Of course the fact that they all keep refering to God as "Him" is a dead giveaway to me that they don't know him from Eve! :xx:

 

I think it's pretty funny when people say that God could be a female, since he is known as "The Father" and he supposedly knocked up a girl.

[Buffy]

I think it's pretty funny when people say that God could be a female, since he is known as "The Father" and he supposedly knocked up a girl.

Ha! Shows ya how much "they" know... Ever notice how God always seems to have long hair and is wearing a dress? They just add the beard to cover up their male chauvinism! :xx:

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[rockytriton]

Ha! Shows ya how much "they" know... Ever notice how God always seems to have long hair and is wearing a dress? They just add the beard to cover up their male chauvinism! :xx:

 

Cheers,

Buffy

 

Ok, are you saying that god is a lesbian then???? Hmm... that would explain why she was still a virgin afterwards... :)

[Buffy]

Ok, are you saying that god is a lesbian then????

Maybe, she's never said anything to me about it, but that's her business! :xx:

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[paultrr]

• Pat Robertson: "I would warn Orlando that you're right in the way of some serious hurricanes and I don't think I'd be waving those flags in God's face if I were you... A condition like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It'll bring about terrorist bombs; it'll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor."
  
• Jerry Falwell on AIDS (1987, since "apologized" for, but not retracted): "A God who hates sin has stopped [homosexuality] dead in its tracks by saying, ‘Do it and die."
  
• James Dobson: "Homosexuals are not monogamous. They want to destroy the institution of marriage. It will destroy marriage. It will destroy the Earth."
  
• Randall Terry: "If the militant homosexuals succeed in their accursed agenda, God will curse and judge our nation.."
  
• Pastor Fred Phelps: Just about all of his lovely site: http://www.godhatesfags.com
  

Its really not the Bible, its the people ordained by God to spread his word....The folks above have big followings and large budgets...

 

Amazed,

Buffy

 

John Denver in Oh God, "Go tell God's Quarter Back to quit preaching his words since he quit preaching mine long ago."

 

Of course, we are speaking of what I like to term as part of the Immoral Minority with the biggest mouths in town who call themselves with tears in their eyes, the Moral Majority.

 

Pat Robinson has always been vocal and big with certain evangleicals. Jerry Falwell, who I rather think fits the God's Quarter back out of Oh God very well, has been in the lime light and political side since way back in the heydays of Larry Flint and Hustler. He's the guy who aligned himself with Keaton, remember him from the Savings & Loan fall out. Ought to tell you where that guys real interests lie. He's after power and money. He's a loud mouth which the Fundamentalists tend to love.

 

James Dobson, of Focus on the Family fame. Started out as an evanglical fundamentalists with a Bible based focus on christian values. Its true he's more and more into the political aspect now. Reminds me a lot of what I was trying to get across about having that outward form of Godliness and denying the power there in in another thread.

 

On that note, willing for a second to play devils advocate here for some of this line of thought has anyone ever considered certain verses out of Revelations that speak of even the elect being deceived if it was not for God's restraining hand and that passage about the type of Christian religion some would have in the latter days. Put the two together.

 

These guys in the name of Christ have gained political power. Christ himself when asked about his kindom stated his kingdom was not of this earth. In fact, in one passage Christ spoke of rendering unto Ceasar(the State) what is Ceasars and unto God what is God's. Talk about seperation of Church and State. Seems he supported such long before that term was codified. Yet, here are these guys using the Church and their Ministry as a pulpit to do exactly the opposite. Jerry Falwell has been in the past involved indirectly in scandles. In general both Jerry Falwell and Pat Robinson and James Dobson all preach round about that the real church does not have to worry about the tribulation because it will be removed before it starts. What if these guys really where wolves in sheep clothing. If memory serves me the only coming leader with political power the Bible speaks of is the Anti-Christ. The only one it speaks of with religious power being tied to the anti-Christ is the false prophet. Since the major power players in the world today tend to be for the most part western societies, of which I would include the Arabs into that mix, and since the Middle East has import during the Revelation story, who are the guys out there with the hands in the cookie jar trying to influence things these days which they all call the later days?

 

Begs in my mind who's trying to set up what in the name of their God? Let's try a score card here.

 

Bush Senior: It was his Ambassador who mistakenly told Sadam before the initial invasion that started Desert Storm that America would do little if Saddam interfered in a certain other country.

 

Bush Junior: Do not need to even go there with Iraq and all, new from time to time treats towards Iran. He sits back and does little about Korea. Let's Israel do what it basically wants as far as the West Bank goes.

 

Then we have Clinton in the Middle, someone who also gives lips service at least to the Evangelicals, who under his term someone here in his Cabnet suggested at one point to Israel about trading off land for a temple space of their own. That one showed up in the National Papers. It also by the way resurfaced under Bush Juniors pre-911 days.

 

No proof guys. This is just speculation based on personalities and events. But let's returning a bit to more logic assume for a moment there is no God as Linda and others uphold. Remember David of Waco fame trying to bring about a war with his followers in tote? How far would these guys go to be proven right? That was a religious side group at Waco. In fact, the Seventh Day guys are rather termed a fundamentalists group as a whole themselves. I'd say even not being a believer Beware of False Prophets.

[paultrr]

Maybe, she's never said anything to me about it, but that's her business! :xx:

 

Cheers,

Buffy

 

Mother Nature tends to be asexual, bisexual, homosexual, and hetrosexual all rolled up into one. Ever watch some dogs and cats before anyone jumps me on this. There part of nature. If our Creator is Mother Nature itself I'd suggest that she's about anything she feels like being and has no emotion or care when it comes to what we think in the first place or anything else for that matter except that care and emotion exhibited by her creations like us and perhaps the rest of the animal kingdom, etc especially when we the people with "intelligence" mess things up for the rest.

[bumab]

John Denver in Oh God, "Go tell God's Quarter Back to quit preaching his words since he quit preaching mine long ago."

 

Sad but true, many times.

 

These guys in the name of Christ have gained political power. Christ himself when asked about his kindom stated his kingdom was not of this earth. In fact, in one passage Christ spoke of rendering unto Ceasar(the State) what is Ceasars and unto God what is God's. Talk about seperation of Church and State. Seems he supported such long before that term was codified. Yet, here are these guys using the Church and their Ministry as a pulpit to do exactly the opposite.

 

You make some really good points here, and I hope you are aware that this thought is not at all unknown to many in the Church. Seeking political power to do God's work is one thing, seeking politcal power because you feel God has given you the right to rule, that's a different one. In many places in the Bible it says "the world will hate you." Thus, I would be a little concerned anytime the good guys seem to be overly successful. Simply living in a society where most of our clothes come from sweat shops, our coffee from slavery conditions, and our lifestyle from the backs of workers all around the world makes you think- living up to the Biblical standard (or attempting to) means living VERY differently then the American dream- which sadly is being usurped by those people you mentioned, and others, to become equivalent with the Christian perspective. Don't lust after possessions? Don't try and have a big house with a big car? Don't try and be monetarily successful? Don't live in this world? What?! :xx:

 

As for the rest of it, interesting speculation, although I would stop short of calling anyone the anti-Christ :) Remember, they just might have good intentions at heart, even if it comes out all wrong and causes problems.

[BEAKER]

This thread is great! So many good points; so many legitimate concerns; so much honest dialog, without too much fighting. (Ummph!#*!:xx: ) Hey...who hit me?!?

 

Seriously, Rocky; the idea that God would punnish you for wondering these things only proves your not satisfied with the answers you've been given. Good for you! I think many of those who seem so antagonistic toward Christ and christians, are that way because they were satisfied that the answers they were given to their questions were all there is to know about such things, and couldn't be bothered to look any deeper. It's easy to follow the crowd. I often tell people: I'm not a christian because my parents were; I'm not a Christian because somebody told me I should be; I'm not a christian because I live in America; I'm certainly not a christian because I'm afraid I'll go to hell if I'm not; I'm certainly not a christian because I can prove conclusively without a shaddow of a doubt from scientific extrapolation and physical evidence all the details about why I believe what I believe. Am I ignorant? sure,- about some things. So are you and everybody else about some things. Does that mean you have nothing of value to say about the things you have less than perfect understanding about? Of course not.

 

I wish I could say that everyone who wears the tiltle "Christian" was a perfect example of what Christ shoud be and had all the answers. But we both know that's not true.

 

If somebody steals your I.D. and commits a crime and is arrested as you because he has your I.D.; have you changed? are you more of a criminal because somebody else did this to you? You're the same you- you always were. So is God.

 

If you want to find God; search for yourself. Start with believing that He does exist and you...are not Him.

[bumab]

and a good way to start asking "does God exist" is by realizing you aren't him (or her, Buffy :xx:)

[BEAKER]

As for the rest of it, interesting speculation, although I would stop short of calling anyone the anti-Christ :) Remember, they just might have good intentions at heart, even if it comes out all wrong and causes problems.

You said it Bumab!:xx:

[rockytriton]

Mother Nature tends to be asexual, bisexual, homosexual, and hetrosexual all rolled up into one. Ever watch some dogs and cats before anyone jumps me on this. There part of nature. If our Creator is Mother Nature itself I'd suggest that she's about anything she feels like being and has no emotion or care when it comes to what we think in the first place or anything else for that matter except that care and emotion exhibited by her creations like us and perhaps the rest of the animal kingdom, etc especially when we the people with "intelligence" mess things up for the rest.

 

I had a dog and cat that would go at it with each other when they were in heat. Maybe I was actually witnessing the trials of evolution??? :xx:

[niviene]

The Left Behind series (eleven volumes so far I think) is one of the biggest selling books of all time: I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions....I know quite a few people personally who do subscribe to this view, so its definitely not a myth.

 

I've read this series.. it's amazing, even if you're not a Christian. It's certainly something to think about, and they were quick reads. Every once in awhile while I'm out doing my thing for the day I stop and think about those books, and I just can't help but wonder....

[niviene]

If you want to find God; search for yourself. Start with believing that He does exist and you...are not Him.

 

 

I love this quote! This is a great thought.

[paultrr]

Sad but true, many times.

 

 

 

You make some really good points here, and I hope you are aware that this thought is not at all unknown to many in the Church. Seeking political power to do God's work is one thing, seeking politcal power because you feel God has given you the right to rule, that's a different one. In many places in the Bible it says "the world will hate you." Thus, I would be a little concerned anytime the good guys seem to be overly successful. Simply living in a society where most of our clothes come from sweat shops, our coffee from slavery conditions, and our lifestyle from the backs of workers all around the world makes you think- living up to the Biblical standard (or attempting to) means living VERY differently then the American dream- which sadly is being usurped by those people you mentioned, and others, to become equivalent with the Christian perspective. Don't lust after possessions? Don't try and have a big house with a big car? Don't try and be monetarily successful? Don't live in this world? What?! :xx:

 

As for the rest of it, interesting speculation, although I would stop short of calling anyone the anti-Christ :) Remember, they just might have good intentions at heart, even if it comes out all wrong and causes problems.

 

I started thinking about this back when I was a believer. So yes, its known somewhat in the church, so to speak. No, I agree. I would not go as far to call them or anyone the anti-Christ. But the potential is there to set up exactly what revelations rather fortold. Here we sit beyond what we could term a Biblical generation(about 40 years) since Israel became a Nation again. We sit over 2000 years since the time of Christ. No second coming. Now we have these well known politically minded religious leaders with adherants sitting in power. They think a certain way when it comes to Revelations as the series another mentioned here points out. What a setup for self forfilling prophecy. Only what's odd when it comes to Revelations is these guys knowingly or unknownly may be sitting up the exact system or events the Church was told in the first place to watch out for. What one needs to ask oneself is where is their God in all this? On the surface discounting the supernatural I'd say their God is Power, Money, etc. In short their God is themselves and they damn well want to prove their self created God was right so bad that they actually become part of the unfolding of their Bible story.

 

One thing to remember is ever since Reagan there has been a buzz word amongst this immoral minority and those in leadership in the government, "New World Order". Even Clinton managed to spout off those words a time or two. Bush Senior was well into its usage as is Junior. Does anyone know the origin of simular words found on the back of the American dollar bill. The words are Latin found there. But the origin of the symbols around them go way back to Egypt and then Babalon. Remember Babalon out of the book of Revelations, the so-called spiritual harlot. She was also as some OT passages point out to be involved in monitary events and world trade. There is also mention of her great city burning as the whole world watches in the book of Revelations.

 

I'm not into the whole backroom consipracy stuff at all. But I do believe people have the ability to set up events via self forfilling prophecy. Most people tend to see Iraq and the rest as a war between our ideas versus their ideas. In short the ideas fueling this are religious in origin. And its this immoral minority of so-called fundamentalists evangelicals who have the reins at present leading us down this trail in the first place. In short, I think if those fortold events come true it will be because human's themselves in the name of their God of forces brought it about. Not because of some fallen angel. Not because some God made it happen. But, to use Christ's own recorded words,"Because of the hardness of man's heart".