Survival Wagon Idea - Recreation Or Reality TV

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Ok, I'm not sure about the final dimensions but I would go a motorcycle grave yard and look for a couple of large motoX cross type bikes and get the front wheels(cast aluminum not spokes) and use the hydraulic disc brakes from the motorcycle to allow me to have two independent brakes,

Sounds a bit heavy to me. Fronts are either 19" or 21" rears usually 18" and both are rather heavy. Alloy motocross rims?????????! I've seen aluminum rims with conventional wire spokes on dirtbikes but I havent seen entirely alloy rims. Definitly got to check em out. Got any links? For all terain work I'd probably go with the rears for a quad (ATV) or better yet an ATC (trike) nice big fat ones...lots o float...which translates to less rolling resistance in folliage ,gravel ,mud, sand and loose dirt...Also a possible benefit of lots of floatation for water crossings...Especially in the case of the ATC tires which were quite wide and tall!

 

BTW...I've tested the floatability of a quad or two and untill the engine chokes on the incoming water (or you roll over) they go quite well.

[Moontanman]

Sounds a bit heavy to me. Fronts are either 19" or 21" rears usually 18" and both are rather heavy. Alloy motocross rims?????????! I've seen aluminum rims with conventional wire spokes on dirtbikes but I havent seen entirely alloy rims. Definitly got to check em out. Got any links? For all terain work I'd probably go with the rears for a quad (ATV) or better yet an ATC (trike) nice big fat ones...lots o float...which translates to less rolling resistance in folliage ,gravel ,mud, sand and loose dirt...Also a possible benefit of lots of floatation for water crossings...Especially in the case of the ATC tires which were quite wide and tall!

 

BTW...I've tested the floatability of a quad or two and untill the engine chokes on the incoming water (or you roll over) they go quite well.

 

Very few wheels are lighter than motox wheels, weight is very important for the spring/shock action. Actually I might be wrong about the allow wheels for motoX I've seen them but it's been a long time since I really followed MotoX. Believe it or not alloy wheels are lighter than spoke wheels, that's why they use them on high performance motorcycles. the weight in very important for handling, light strong wheels are a must! The disc brakes are for sure in high end Motox bikes and there should be some in the junk yard by now. MotoX bike have very light drilled out discs, since we are talking about human powered carts I do think the two wheeled cart (rickshaw type) is your best bet. If not alloy wheels then spoked wheels would do as long as you did indeed fill the tires up with foam rubber. They make a special foam for this. You can mount wider tires on the rimes if you want or use the rear wheels and mount really wide tires. They don't have to be much taller than 18" or so. As for flotation, if the bed of your cart can be buttoned up it should float even with a heavy load. You be surprised at how easy it is to get something float. Even if you had a thousand pounds of gear a wagon six feet long three or four feet wide and two feet tall would float easy with that load. Of course avoiding turning over might be difficult but that would be something you would want to test with cinder blocks instead your gear well before you strike out!

[Turtle]

Now we're talkin'! Thanks Moontan, Ahmabee, and Dstrbd; you guys rock! :hihi:

 

So: foam in tires; I likey. :) As my pneumatic tires leak religiously, foam additive is now on my list.

 

Chocolate eggs; so nice melted in morning coffee in da woots. :(

 

Size is tricky; too wide and you can't get down a narrow trail or through a doorway; as a practical survival setup, one ought well consider the urban environment as well as the wilds. Too long and can't make sharp turns. Too tall and can't get through lowhanging branches. Maybe the answer is adding additional wagons train style?

 

I went & put together a short vid of some basic rigging I have set for my wagon. The black plastic pipe device is a rack in the wagon, a table out, and it holds, solar passive heats, and pressure delivers ~ 4 gallons of water. The harness rigging is new & untested over any appreciable distance, and I have a belt setup for it so I can go hands free.

 

YouTube - Wilderness Wagon Rigging http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9mxX2v_pEI

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Hey Turtle! If you arent too worried about wheel diameter they sell wheel barrow tires that never go flat (they're solid but still somewhat squishy and rated at 1100 or 1200Lbs each) some even come mounted on rims with pretty good bearings.

At about $20 each (with rim) they're pretty cheap too. Wheel chair rims with solid tires might be another good option. Or ya could use 26" tricycle rims with slime filled tires.... I have a couple of wooden wagon wheels with steel tires But those are for the canon I keep hoping I'll get around to finishing! BTW...why pull? Why not canabulise a mountain bike or two and go pedal powered...or why not solar/electric using a motor or two from those rediculous scooter things?.... pulling things sucks.

 

Moontanman-

Yes alloys with spokes are lighter than steel. I have some of each out back but they still are rather heavy compared to mountain bike rims by at least a good 5 or 10Lbs. without the tire and tube which with its' extra meat easilly outweighs a mountain bike tire and tube by at least 5 or 6 times.

[Moontanman]

Sadly, if the current economic conditions continue your idea of Survival wagons could be a big demand item!

[modest]

Last time me and some friends went camping we took a portable power generator, a TV, and a PS2 (this was before plasmas and all the new fangled gadgets that make tuning out the world so much easier now) But, no kidding, we spent most of the weekend at the lake no more than an extension cord's distance from the car looking at the TV exercising our thumbs - So... I don't think I'd be the best at this.

 

-modest

[Ahmabeliever]

Ha ha modest.

 

You are the people I laugh at 'nicely' as I walk past the camping grounds and into the mountains.

 

My sister came to visit us in the bush and her husband looked to be carrying 200 lbs. On top was a large plastic basin. What's that for - Washing dishes! ;)

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Ha ha modest.

 

You are the people I laugh at 'nicely' as I walk past the camping grounds and into the mountains.

 

My sister came to visit us in the bush and her husband looked to be carrying 200 lbs. On top was a large plastic basin. What's that for - Washing dishes! ;)

Lol!:) Me too. I've always thought the idea of going camping was to get away from all of the modern BS and get back to basics. When I go the it's all about peace and quiet no celly, no radio, no TV, no video games, no electronic product of any sort.

 

Tent, fishin pole, tackle, rope, enhanced first aid kit (duct tape, needle nosed pliers (a gerber tool), a couple small needles, sterilized fishin line, 151 rum, and double edged razor blades as well as a propper firts aid kit...you never know when you'll need the extra goodies), a compass, map, and mess kit as well as non perishable foodstuffs are all I take with me. (Oh yeah TP...can't forget the TP.:))

[Turtle]

Last time me and some friends went camping we took a portable power generator, a TV, and a PS2 (this was before plasmas and all the new fangled gadgets that make tuning out the world so much easier now) But, no kidding, we spent most of the weekend at the lake no more than an extension cord's distance from the car looking at the TV exercising our thumbs - So... I don't think I'd be the best at this.

 

-modest

 

Ha ha modest.

 

You are the people I laugh at 'nicely' as I walk past the camping grounds and into the mountains.

 

My sister came to visit us in the bush and her husband looked to be carrying 200 lbs. On top was a large plastic basin. What's that for - Washing dishes! :)

 

That's it fellers; mix it up! :) Now imagine you're 15 miles into the forest and carrying on the same jocular quippage as you pull and or push your carefully chosen loads. The more the merrier, and I guarantee everyone is a little off balance. Who brought a file? Anybody bring oil?

 

Then at camp, a little friendly competition to see who can get their wagon across the creek in best & shortest order. Cross a fence the same? Traverse a steep grade?

 

Anyway, on having the cart/wagon powered. I kinda think I'd rather not listen to an internal combustion engine, and unless your whole load consists of batteries, you aint gettin too far. (This is where your support crew camped in the motor home at base comes in.) I do have a portable 2,000 pound 12 volt winch in my kit, as well as a hand powered 'come-along'. Here again, is the weight justified? Better safe than sorry? ;) :)

 

My wagon as seen in my vid weighs in at about 100 pounds empty. That washing pan may not only be handy, but required, as in the forest campers must have a shovel and a bucket for firefighting & fire safety.

 

The biggest hurdle I see right now for the 4th of July Rally is realizing how poor of shape I'm in after rushing around a couple days workin' on the wagon. :hihi:

[Ahmabeliever]

The winch is brilliant when you have a wagon, no doubt, the portable bridge is very cool. Every time you read a settler story or an adventure type novel they spend a lot of time trying to cross rivers.

 

Combining the 'basic needs pack' of food clothing and shelter and means of producing more...

 

Plus some of the stuff you're thinking of taking along, damn, it's really good.

 

Now, the tv....

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Anyway, on having the cart/wagon powered. I kinda think I'd rather not listen to an internal combustion engine, and unless your whole load consists of batteries, you aint gettin too far.

Those scooter motors I was talkin about are the electric type (petrol would probably be rather hard to come by after the appocolyps). And you failed to metion your oppinion of using pedal power with many gears!:hihi: For laughs I once pulled a plow with my mountain bike:hihi:The low gears are real low and If I can turn soil with a mountain bike then a couple hundred pounds of me gear and cart should be no prob.:)

[Turtle]

The winch is brilliant when you have a wagon, no doubt, the portable bridge is very cool. Every time you read a settler story or an adventure type novel they spend a lot of time trying to cross rivers.

 

Combining the 'basic needs pack' of food clothing and shelter and means of producing more...

 

Plus some of the stuff you're thinking of taking along, damn, it's really good.

 

Now, the tv....

 

Those scooter motors I was talkin about are the electric type (petrol would probably be rather hard to come by after the appocolyps). And you failed to metion your oppinion of using pedal power with many gears! For laughs I once pulled a plow with my mountain bikeThe low gears are real low and If I can turn soil with a mountain bike then a couple hundred pounds of me gear and cart should be no prob.

 

Acknowledged all. Now, as Goku might say, we're gettin' 'er done. :hihi:

 

On the winches: I have a dedicated rope sack with a variety of lengths & thickness. My main hauler is a 600 foot length of 2,500 pound test nylon strap (I traded some bonsais for it; apparently they use it to pull cables through underground conduits), plus another 200 feet of it in smaller pieces, and another ~300 feet of smaller rope & cord. For anchoring, I still want some 2 or 3 foot stakes to belay off of, but I have several dozen of the smaller 1 foot metal camping spikes.

 

I have a 12" TV that is both 12 volt dc and 120 ac with a built in VCR, and I have taken it out in the forest on a Sasquatch hunt already, using it to watch the feed from my infrared camera at night. :eek: :) I ran the TV & camera continuously for 10 hours without completely draining the battery (100 amp hour deep cell).

 

Pedal power good! Not only to propel/pull the wagon, but also with a generator setup to recharge the battery in addition to a solar panel. If the generator setup is well enough generalized, you could pedal crank, hand crank, wind crank, or water crank it too. I'm thinking a motorcycle alternator with its voltage regulator? My back doesn't tolerate a bike well anymore, but maybe a trike for me. :hihi:

 

Let's see, this is more than I usually write at once. :hihi: :hyper: You guys are laughin' now at me aren't ya? No worries; I'm laughin' with ya'll laughin' at me. :lol: One more thingy then on the electronics, and that's GPS. It doesn't replace my maps & compass & other 'natural' navigation aids, it compliments them. NMH rechargable batteries, and a battery charger powered by the deep cell = no worries. Might even correct the maps.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Let's see, this is more than I usually write at once. You guys are laughin' now at me aren't ya? No worries; I'm laughin' with ya'll laughin' at me.

Nah...Well actually yeah but only a little....well not really a little....:hihi:

 

I'm thinkin recumbant quad...I'm rather partial to reclining in my old age...plus that would allow for the pedals to be mounted higher whilst maintaining a lower CG and yielding better ground clearence (plus my back is far to shot to be hunched over handelbars for any period of time). I'm also thinking that with the auger drives from three rototillers or snow throwers four wheel drive is highly feasible (add a couple flexible steering couplers from a truck up front to drive the fronts whilst still maintaining the ablity to steer).... with massive gear reduction no less! (can always make up for it at the chain drive).

 

Build the bugger out of 16Ga. aluminum box for the frame and 16Ga. sheet aluminum for the deck with 22Ga. sides an she'll be strong and light as all getout.

 

 

As for motorbike alternators....

They aren't very powerful and require a lot of rpm to make what little power they do make. A better alternative would be a (farm) tractor generator as they tend to operate at lower RPM and produce higher amperage.

[Turtle]

...Build the bugger out of 16Ga. aluminum box for the frame and 16Ga. sheet aluminum for the deck with 22Ga. sides an she'll be strong and light as all getout.

 

 

As for motorbike alternators....

They aren't very powerful and require a lot of rpm to make what little power they do make. A better alternative would be a (farm) tractor generator as they tend to operate at lower RPM and produce higher amperage.

 

Roger tractor generator, but is that actually a generator, or is it an alternator?

 

On the strong box, there is good reason for it in regards to preventing theft, watertighness, and protection of tools and equipment. I have an old WWII military surplus steel box that fits in my wagon; it weighs 40 pounds empty. :hihi: I continue to debate myself if leaving it in favor of 40 pounds of food or some such a matter is the best choice. Still, up in the cascades one has to guard the food against bear, cougar, porcupine, coyote, mice, martin, raccoon, Sasquatch, and other such critters.

 

That's a wrap from the cap. :)

[Ahmabeliever]

I use a sack and tie my food in a tree hanging from rope. Are your animals particularly clever, we don't get much game here and pigs and deer are crap at tree climbing. Possums don't figure the rope out (yet).

 

We had a big one eyed possum (think it was religious) refused to leave camp till I fed it something. I'd kill it's cousins with a tomohawk and make stew but I was scared of that possum. it was huge and a big scar down it's face over the missing eye. When I read about old one eye in clan of the cave bear it twigged. I was living with a shaman in my camp.

 

One time we sat at night taking mushrooms that grew right there and we watched an electrical storm out at sea. The next morning we woke on the beach with hundreds of dolphins swimming in the bay.

 

This morning I sat in a traffic jam.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Roger tractor generator, but is that actually a generator, or is it an alternator?

 

On the strong box, there is good reason for it in regards to preventing theft, watertighness, and protection of tools and equipment. I have an old WWII military surplus steel box that fits in my wagon; it weighs 40 pounds empty. :confused: I continue to debate myself if leaving it in favor of 40 pounds of food or some such a matter is the best choice. Still, up in the cascades one has to guard the food against bear, cougar, porcupine, coyote, mice, martin, raccoon, Sasquatch, and other such critters.

 

That's a wrap from the cap.

You're goin to have to do your homework on this one ...what you want is a GENerator and the reason is thus- alternators HAVE to have electricity to begin with to start to produce power... once going they'll produce but they first need juice to the field coil to create the magnetic field needed to generate power in the rotor...Whereas a generator uses permanent magnets instead of a field coil and can produce without needing "seed" current.

 

The home work part:doh: (I hate homework! I thought I was done when I graduated...But NOoo! Now I've got kids and I have to help with theirs! Worse I can't make heads or tails of most of it!!:()-

 

Your going to have to sort out whether your looking at a gen or an alt and you'll have to sort out wether it's six or twelve volt...of course you could build you're own by yankin' out the field from an alt and replacing it with permanent magnets similar in size (slightly larger covering about half the width of the windings) to the Iron (steel?) cores of the field coils...Which would probably be easier (and cheaper) than tracking down and purchasing a generator...

 

Note get the highest amperage of either you can as it will produce more usable power at a lower RPM...also the stronger the magnets in the field the more power per RPM.

 

Also note Alts are (usually) three phase and always produce alternating current (you may have to make or buy a rectifyer if you can't use the origional) While generators are usually single phase and produce DC thus needing no rectifyer.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

On the strong box, there is good reason for it in regards to preventing theft, watertighness, and protection of tools and equipment. I have an old WWII military surplus steel box that fits in my wagon; it weighs 40 pounds empty. :confused: :(

40# too much weight man...you could probably halve that easily goin to aluminim....I'm thinking old truck cap as a ready source...Discarded caps are cheap here (they only pitch the aluminum ones though... wierd)...usually people get them with used pickups...don't want em...and eagerly place them in their front yards for anything from $50 to free!

 

Stupid peoples! (those that give em away for free as rubbish) Mine weighs about 70lbs (with the glass, 55 or so w/out)...I haven't priced scrap aluminum lately but I gotta bet there's at least $30 there!

 

But it's got a frame of 16Ga. 1"x1" box section which is pretty tough and it's got countless square feet of 22Ga. sheet perfect for canabalising!

 

Almost forgot for that 55lbs or so there is 8'x6'x4' of cap. How's that compare to your strong box dimentions?

 

And just in case I was misunderstood...I was talking about building the bulk of the cart-frame, deck, sides, and support for some sort of canvas roof out of aluminum in the previous (it's somewhere back there) post. Though a strong box integrated itno the design definitly sounds like a good idea.