Rade Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 Can anyone provide a rational argument why all the beasts , creepy things , and birds of the earth had to be killed by the flood, with only those able to make it to the ark of Noah able to survive and reproduce ? I mean, I can understand killing all the evil humans, , but Bambi and Kermit and Mr. Ed, for what good reason ? Moontanman 1 Quote
Moontanman Posted January 20, 2012 Report Posted January 20, 2012 Can anyone provide a rational argument why all the beasts , creepy things , and birds of the earth had to be killed by the flood, with only those able to make it to the ark of Noah able to survive and reproduce ? I mean, I can understand killing all the evil humans, , but Bambi and Kermit and Mr. Ed, for what good reason ? Since it is easily demonstrated the flood did not happen I can't see where you are going with this... But it is true the bible is quite harsh on animals god feels like have sinned in some way, if a woman lies with a ***, both of them must be killed.. LMFAO Quote
dduckwessel Posted January 24, 2012 Report Posted January 24, 2012 If there's no geological evidence for a global flood then the entire story is questionable from the usual standpoint. Variations of a flood story are prevalent in many cultures though and I have to wonder why?:http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html Too, when the Tsunami hit Japan, many animals must have perished? Many people today believe that God (as thought to be the creator of this world) caused the Tsunami (and so the loss of lives, both human and animal)! However, that would be an archaic view as today we know that movement of underwater tectonic plates causes earthquakes, which generates Tsunami's! Quote
Moontanman Posted January 24, 2012 Report Posted January 24, 2012 If there's no geological evidence for a global flood then the entire story is questionable from the usual standpoint. Variations of a flood story are prevalent in many cultures though and I have to wonder why?:http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html Too, when the Tsunami hit Japan, many animals must have perished? Many people today believe that God (as thought to be the creator of this world) caused the Tsunami (and so the loss of lives, both human and animal)! However, that would be an archaic view as today we know that movement of underwater tectonic plates causes earthquakes, which generates Tsunami's! Ever seen a flash flood? There is geological evidence for some pretty bad floods, some no doubt flooded thousands of square miles of land, and these were in the last few thousand years... I am quite sure the idea of a flood is both a genetic memory and a real mythos passed down from generation to generation but it was a natural occurrence over a very limited area, there was no world wide flood brought about by god... Quote
dduckwessel Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 Ever seen a flash flood? There is geological evidence for some pretty bad floods, some no doubt flooded thousands of square miles of land, and these were in the last few thousand years... I am quite sure the idea of a flood is both a genetic memory and a real mythos passed down from generation to generation but it was a natural occurrence over a very limited area, there was no world wide flood brought about by god... You're correct, I've never seen a flash flood or I'm sure I would remember it...I wonder though - why a flood in particular?...you would think a volcanic eruption would have made more of an impression on ancient folks yet there doesn't appear to be as much folklore about those kinds of events? Quote
JMJones0424 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 I am quite sure the idea of a flood is both a genetic memory and a real mythos passed down from generation to generationWhat do you mean by "genetic memory" here? I wonder though - why a flood in particular?...you would think a volcanic eruption would have made more of an impression on ancient folks yet there doesn't appear to be as much folklore about those kinds of events? People who live near volcanoes include many tales involving volcanoes in their mythology. Those who don't, don't. Google is your friend. Quote
Moontanman Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 What do you mean by "genetic memory" here? Animals have genetic memories, possibly instinct is a better way to put it. Animals will try to get away from danger by instinct, humans do not completely lack this instinct. People who live near volcanoes include many tales involving volcanoes in their mythology. Those who don't, don't. Google is your friend. It's also worth asserting that flash floods occur more often than erupting volcanoes by a significant number. Just a regular flood is scary, the water begins to turn brown at first, I've seen this first hand, a thin brown streak of water down the center of the small stream, it's a clear day, you might have heard thunder ruble in the distance but then you are sure you did, the rumble is the flood coming, not a huge rushing wall but the stream turns unto a torrent in just a couple minutes, you really have to more fast to get to high ground. Trees and even building go rushing past pushed by the huge rush of water, it is terrifying.... I have no doubt these events even on a small scale would be preserved in legend. Imagine a glacial lake as big as the great lakes of North America, held in by a damn of ice, as the earth warmed the ice gets weak and breaks away, the flood is, at least to the people living in the area, biblical in proportion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood The Black Sea (around 7,600 years ago)Main article: Black Sea deluge theory Black Sea today (light blue) and in 5600 BC (dark blue) according to Ryan's and Pitman's theoriesA rising sea flood, recently disclosed[clarification needed] and much-discussed refilling of the freshwater glacial Black Sea with water from the Aegean, was described as "a violent rush of salt water into a depressed fresh-water lake in a single catastrophe that has been the inspiration for the flood mythology" (Ryan and Pitman, 1998).[citation needed] The marine incursion, which was caused by the rising level of the Mediterranean, occurred around 7,600 years ago. It remains an active subject of debate among geologists, with subsequent evidence discovered to both support and discredit the existence of the flood, while the theory that it formed the basis for later flood myths is not proven. Quote
Qfwfq Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 I don't see the need for this discussion going so much off topic. :steering: No doubt the biblical flood is a legend, likely based on something that happened and the tale of it became a moral preaching. Although it did not submerge all land of the planet, something happened and narrative blew it up a bit, much like Illiad and Odyssey, much like Navigatio Brendani and of course Gilgamesh. So, why the need for argument? The OP simply asks why so many little critters had to be punished for the sins of Man. My reply is along the lines that the preacher who wrote that story hardly cared about the poor little beasties, he only needed to give an explanation of why not all of them perished, seeing as the Hebrews were well aware of it, I guess he couldn't very well have claimed Noah saved them all and only let humans drown. It's as simple as that, I'd say. Moontanman and CraigD 2 Quote
Rade Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Posted February 20, 2012 Thank you Qfwfq for moving the thread back to the topic, but, your explanation was not what I asked. I am not interested in what interpretation some preacher wrote, I am interested in the logical argument God would provide...I put God on trial not the preacher. Quote
Qfwfq Posted February 27, 2012 Report Posted February 27, 2012 I am not interested in what interpretation some preacher wrote, I am interested in the logical argument God would provide...I put God on trial not the preacher.Perhaps God would blame it on the preacher. If he even cares to show up at the hearing. Quote
Rade Posted February 27, 2012 Author Report Posted February 27, 2012 Perhaps God would blame it on the preacher. If he even cares to show up at the hearing.But the Preacher wrote this as instructed by God <"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10>. Clearly it is best God stay away from the hearing. Quote
SaxonViolence Posted February 27, 2012 Report Posted February 27, 2012 (edited) God in his infinite wisdom, does things incomprehensible to mortal man. Why have Noah go to all the trouble to build an Arc? Couldn't he have created one for Noah and crew, instead of having them slave away for years building one? Why was any Ark even necessary? Couldn't God protected Noah and Family and Menagerie, any one of dozens of other ways? Why the insistence that water be the agent of destruction? These are All Childish Questions--and you wouldn't be astonished to hear them, in third or fourth Grade Sunday School Class. They are "Childish" because once has a firm grasp of the concept that God is both all-powerful, and all-knowing..... There are bound to be times that we simply have to shake our heads and Candidly Admit that we have no idea what God was thinking, when did this, that or the other thing. Saxon Violence Edited February 27, 2012 by SaxonViolence Quote
Rade Posted February 29, 2012 Author Report Posted February 29, 2012 Yes, all-powerful and all-knowing but not all-good, for as God tells us, 'only the good takes care of the animals'. Quote
Moontanman Posted February 29, 2012 Report Posted February 29, 2012 God in his infinite wisdom, does things incomprehensible to mortal man. Why have Noah go to all the trouble to build an Arc? Couldn't he have created one for Noah and crew, instead of having them slave away for years building one? Why was any Ark even necessary? Couldn't God protected Noah and Family and Menagerie, any one of dozens of other ways? Why the insistence that water be the agent of destruction? These are All Childish Questions--and you wouldn't be astonished to hear them, in third or fourth Grade Sunday School Class. They are "Childish" because once has a firm grasp of the concept that God is both all-powerful, and all-knowing..... There are bound to be times that we simply have to shake our heads and Candidly Admit that we have no idea what God was thinking, when did this, that or the other thing. Saxon Violence Then again, and much more likely is, there are no gods and this is the stuff of legends written about floods on a more local scale. Quote
Knothead Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Noah: God, what am I going to say to all the other animals? How am I going to choose only two? Why must so many innocent animals have to pay for the sins of man? It grieves me sorely. God: I'm sorry Noah. I know it sucks. But you truly are the best man for this job. Someone has to be the one to represent the future of the human race and you really are a pretty good dude. You've always had your priorities straight and you never tried to feed me a line of bull when I asked you about all those cruel, greedy, polluting, ungrateful cousins of yours. You always treated your fellow creatures with kindness and empathy and I know how hard it must be for you to know that so many are going to have to die for the sins of man. But they aren't my animals Noah, they are man's. Just like this land I gave you. It was all yours to cherish and nurture or to waste and defile. As much as it hurts both of us Noah, it's your cousins you should be blaming for this. I guess you could say it's part of price. But take comfort buddy. Just between you and me, those critters aren't going anywhere really. Not even those animals you're related to. Trust me Noah. I have thought this out. That's why they pay me the big bucks. Noah: Grumble...grumble.... God:What was that? Noah: Will I ever really understand? God:Oh Noah, you already do. You just don't know it yet. But I promise you this. Those animals will never suffer as much pain as you are suffering now. Rest easy. sigurdV 1 Quote
Rade Posted March 3, 2012 Author Report Posted March 3, 2012 God: I'm sorry Noah. I know it sucks. ...But they aren't my animals Noah, they are man's...like this land I gave you.Oh my, but your attempt to help God out of his moral pickle requires that God lies to Noah, because we read these words from God {Psalm 50:7-12.."I am God..the wild beasts of the field are mine...and the cattle...the world is mine"}. God never places blame on humans as to why all the animals had to die during the flood event (except those in the ark of Noah), God takes full responsibility for the act of the killing. In Genesis 6 God indicates that "it repenteth me that I made them [the animals]". But, there were many other logical options available to God so as to kill only evil humans and save all the animals, but God decided not to take those actions. I see nothing wrong with the conclusion that the answer to the OP question is simply that God can act wicked if he so wills, and did so will when he decided to kill all the animals during the flood, with the only explanation given that "it repenteth me that I made them (the animals)". "A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10, and we can say the same for God. Quote
Knothead Posted March 3, 2012 Report Posted March 3, 2012 Oh my, but your attempt to help God out of his moral pickle requires that God lies to Noah, because we read these words from God {Psalm 50:7-12.."I am God..the wild beasts of the field are mine...and the cattle...the world is mine"}. God never places blame on humans as to why all the animals had to die during the flood event (except those in the ark of Noah), God takes full responsibility for the act of the killing. In Genesis 6 God indicates that "it repenteth me that I made them [the animals]". But, there were many other logical options available to God so as to kill only evil humans and save all the animals, but God decided not to take those actions. I see nothing wrong with the conclusion that the answer to the OP question is simply that God can act wicked if he so wills, and did so will when he decided to kill all the animals during the flood, with the only explanation given that "it repenteth me that I made them (the animals)". "A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10, and we can say the same for God. Oh my. Let the atonement begin. :P I understand your point and it's valid. But isn't it also possible to give something away and still own it? I have chickens. If I give my hen a delectable broccoli leaf, (Which she absolutely loves),and she eats it. The leaf is hers in every respect. But it's still mine, because she's my chicken. I provide for her, I eat her eggs and I'll eat her in the end too. (no reflection on God there :unsure: ) It's been a long time since I've read or studied the bible and I will admit to taking some liberties. :( It was just in fun and I hope in the spirit of the thread. :) Quote
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