This Is Cool. Is It For Real?

[CraigD]

It's not real.

Right on.

 

This old thread is pretty much a collection of debunkings of silly perpetual motion machine claims – welcome to it. :)

 

DFINITLYDSTRUBD "...in fact it's merely using a permanent magnet as a battery."

 

It's "merely using a permanent magnet as a battery"? That's ridiculous.... where are you getting this stuff?

 

DFINITLYDSTRUBD "The magnets will eventually get weak and go dead just like any other battery."

 

Magnets are no more like batteries than they are like jelly beans.

There’s actually some cool and counterintuitive work & energy physics around magnetic materials, showing that they are somewhat like electric batteries, in that they can store energy.

 

Materials in different states of collective magnetization have different potential energies, so as with any such system, can, in principle, be used to store energy. The counterintuitive part is that the potential energy of a magnetic material is greater when it is less magnetized than when it’s more – that is, as you’d extract energy from a magnet, it would become stronger, not weaker. I explained this in more details (and with some little LaTeX drawings) in a series of 2008 posts beginning here

 

I’ve barely the slightest clue how you could in practice build a “magnetization powered” machine like this. The best I’ve been able to vague imagine is some scheme involving a material (typically a mixture of powdered neodymium, iron, and boron) heated to just above its Curie temperature. As As it cools to just below its T_c, the material changes from not-a-magnet to a strong one, producing a moving magnetic field, which could move a mechanism, or induce a current.

 

Minus extracting some work from it, this is essentially how permanent magnets are manufactured (for more, see here), so a hobbyist with access to a magnet making factory might be able to try this.

 

I’ve not read anything about, not tried myself to calculate, the amount of energy involved. This would be an interesting, though complicated, exercise. I’ve a hunch the energy would be tiny, but might be surprised.

 

Atrollheis-because there's no such thing as a permanent magnet motor.

Hey don't tell these guys that :lol:

 

GE

GM

ZAP

EMD

TEMCO

Or any of the hundreds of other companies that manufacture and/or sell :lol:

There’s a difference between a “permanent magnet electric motor” – which uses permanent magnets to produce a magnetic field (the motor’s stator) and an electric current passing through it (its rotor), to produce force and/or work – and one that uses only permanent magnets.

 

Lots of commercial and handmade electric motors, small and large, have permanent magnet stators. As such stators don’t need windings, they allow for simpler designs than motors with electromagnetic stators.

 

To the best of my knowledge, no magnetism-powered motor has actually been built. As I describe above, I’m not sure it’s practically possible, though believe it is in principle, though involving exactly the opposite effect on the magnetic materials than most alternative energy conspiracy theorists assume.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

CraigD- There’s a difference between a “permanent magnet electric motor” – which uses permanent magnets to produce a magnetic field (the motor’s stator) and an electric current passing through it (its rotor), to produce force and/or work – and one that uses only permanent magnets.<br style="color: rgb(8, 8, 8); font-size: 13px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">

I know. But could not resist Atrollheis's invite to play with semantics.

Atrollheis-because there's no such thing as a permanent magnet motor.

There in fact is such a thing, not in the context of the OP but he did not specify that now did he

 

Atrollheis, While I'm flattered that you feel the need to stalk me and follow my every action here (yeah I noticed) even to the point of digging up old threads I've posted in to try to rekindle a conversation with me, I already have a stalker, in fact I married her.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

CraigD- Materials in different states of collective magnetization have different potential energies, so as with any such system, can, in principle, be used to store energy. The counterintuitive part is that the potential energy of a magnetic material is greater when it is less magnetized than when it’s more – that is, as you’d extract energy from a magnet, it would become stronger, not weaker. I explained this in more details (and with some little LaTeX drawings) in a series of 2008 posts beginning here

 

The general consensus among manufacturers is that exposure to strong magnetic fields reduces the useful properties of magnets over time...

.......Placing the magnet in an alternating magnetic field with intensity above the material's coercivity and then either slowly drawing the magnet out or slowly decreasing the magnetic field to zero......

Some demagnetization or reverse magnetization will occur if any part of the magnet is subjected to a reverse field above the magnetic material's coercivity.

Demagnetisation progressively occurs if the magnet is subjected to cyclic fields sufficient to move the magnet away from the linear part on the second quadrant of the B-H curve of the magnetic material (the demagnetisation curve).

I suspect you and i are talking about two different things...As best I can figure....I should be replacing demagnetize and weaken with as the fields within the magnet become misaligned? Edited December 15, 2012 by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

[Guest Aemilius]

DEFINITELYATURD (Hey! Name calling is fun!) "Atrollheis, While I'm flattered that you feel the need to stalk me and follow my every action here (yeah I noticed) even to the point of digging up old threads I've posted in to try to rekindle a conversation with me, I already have a stalker, in fact I married her."

 

Well, you can call using the "Find My Content " feature on the "Profile" page trolling or stalking if you want to, but that won't make it true. By the way, if I was trying to be sneaky about it I could have just signed out first before looking.... but I don't need to be sneaky and I don't care what you think of members that choose to use that feature.

 

CraigD "There’s a difference between a “permanent magnet electric motor” – which uses permanent magnets to produce a magnetic field (the motor’s stator) and an electric current passing through it (its rotor), to produce force and/or work – and one that uses only permanent magnets."

 

DEFINITELYATURD "I know. But could not resist Atrollheis's invite to play with semantics."

 

Semantics? Yeah right, that's not what you said over here....

 

DEFINITELYATURD "Permanent magnet powered motors hold a great deal of fascination for me. So far I've been studying the concept since 1983 when I dismantled a small battery powered car to learn how it worked. Discovering that the mass of wire in there also became a magnet when hooked to the battery the next logical question was "if the battery just turns the wires into a magnet, why then do you need the wire or the battery? Why not just put magnets there to begin with?" Just as fascinating is their dismissal by supposedly educated people as PPM machines."

Edited December 16, 2012 by Aemilius