Check yer sources, fool!

[bumab]

Not just scientific shows- check political shows for their funding sources, check the news for their funding sources, check newspapers for their top contributors, etc etc...

[Fishteacher73]

I keep wanting to go to a museum in Glen Rose Texas. This is where Fossil Rim Park is that has a long series of fossilized dino prints. In the same town is a Creationist museum that claims to have fossil evidence of creation. I see it advertisd on the TBN or something like that (I have a odd obsession with pseudo-science shows on TV, especially religious ones).

[Fishteacher73]

Not just scientific shows- check political shows for their funding sources, check the news for their funding sources, check newspapers for their top contributors, etc etc...

 

Don't forget Bush's latest "Town Hall" format speaches, with a scripted and selected audience...

[Queso]

Don't forget Bush's latest "Town Hall" format speaches, with a scripted and selected audience...

 

are you serious? ;) why does he do that?

you know, other than the fact that he doesn't want to be asked absurd questions...is there any other reason?

[bumab]

Don't forget Bush's latest "Town Hall" format speaches, with a scripted and selected audience...

 

No kidding. Those tick me off, although sadly, many politicians do that, not just Bush.

[Queso]

No kidding. Those tick me off, although sadly, many politicians do that, not just Bush.

that's rediculous!

where is our beloved freedom????????? we are freeer (free-er, how do you spell that. actually it's not a word. i should have said more free, but i didn't. i could have just deleted it instead of explain it too...but i didn't)

anyways, we are more free than other countries. but look at this crap, we're not free. ;)

[Fishteacher73]

It gives the illusion of support of various demographic sources as well as a general air of positive support. The scripted questions (including praise) allow the individual to prepare answers to questions that are carefully worded to put the best spin on reply. Unfortunatly it is quite effective. Just as we accept someone in a lab coat as real, we have a tendency to project everyman onto someone tha appears to be an "Average Joe".

[niviene]

I try to give at least a few minutes to allow the students to ask about whatever they want. (Although I ban sex and drugs to keep from losing my job...the two probably most important issues that they do need to ask some questions about.) Some spark some interest others do not, but it nice to see the occasional student "get it".

 

AS per adults, many once they get out of school tend to freeze up. Just look at many adults on their spare time. If you graduated in 1987 you still like oakleys, acid washed jeans and Van Halen. (Not always, but you can see a trend to a degree). This stagnation quells the drive to questyion anything.

 

THat's true... but I think this forum is another example of that. I consider myself to be an intelligent person, even though I don't know much about science, I want to know and I want to learn, and around here there are so many intelligent people that know a lot about things I would like to learn about. Sometimes I feel like I can step in and ask a question or two (or read others' questions) to try and get it myself... and when I do, it's a great feeling to suddenly understand something I've wanted to know about. But sometimes here people forget that some of us doing the asking don't understand all the big stuff involved - I have seen (and received) replies to questions that jump from a simple question to a huge, undecipherable response... not so to the poster, obviously, or others here who are knowledgeable in those fields, but to me, very much so, and this makes me feel like an idiot for asking, and I CERTAINLY don't want to ask AGAIN or for clarification.. it's embarassing! I see that a lot... and I would say that is a big reason that I don't know much about these fields. Back in school there were some things I didn't get (chemistry....always chemistry) and I was afraid to ask, because my teacher didn't like explaining it in simple terms. So, to this day, I am still afraid to ask about it, unless someone actually makes an effort to show me they want me to get it. I think there are a lot of other people like me who are walking around feeling like certain subjects are unapproachable for them because of experiences like this in their lives. I think science is incredibly fun, and there aren't many people who do... and yet, I still have problems, and I haven't had a science class since I first went to college about 12 years ago. MY experience in college was the same - I had a lab prof who was more interested in looking good than answering questions, even though she continued to insist that she was there to answer any questions - but all of my questions were responded to with, "You should know that!" Man, was that annoying... But, my point is, questioning things can be a big deal for some people due to the responses they've had from doing so before (or maybe when they saw someone else doing so). Maybe some people are even afraid of what their peers would say, rather than their instructors, if they were to question. I could care less about my peers. When I question an educated person, I would like them to know that I have a genuine interest in the topic and that I don't understand it, even though I am educated in different areas, and not a moron. I am now studying law rather than physics or chemistry, even though I am genuinely interested in those fields, too, and I would guess that it's because I had an interest in it and was able to ask questions without being met with sarcasm or condescension by the people explaining things to me.

 

I think it's awesome that you really give students a chance to ask you things. I hope you allow them a chance to ask you in private, too, because some have the potential to get it and are just intimidated by the atmosphere. I think this ties into another post here somewhere where, I think it was bumab, perhaps, who posted that there are different types of people - those who will never learn, those who will always learn, and those who might or might not. As in my case - I will always learn... always. If I can't find someone to teach me, I will look online and see if I can figure it out myself. If I can't, then I go to my brother... again. I'm hoping this site will be another great source for those answers. So far it has been, even though I sometimes have to sort through responses I only half understand and some sarcasm, some are excellent. This helps me ask more questions. This is how I get to "ask the instructor". ;) I think that allowing people to ask without pressure is the big swing between those who might learn and those who might not learn, too.

[Queso]

great post. learning is my favorite drug, so to say. ;)

[bumab]

It's just amazing how impressionable we make young children, with the intention of being better able to teach them more stuff. The end result is they know more, but think less (and even the "know more" part is debatable.

 

Today, for example, I observed another teacher present an online lesson on abortion (disclaimer: NOT TURNING THIS INTO AN ABORTION THREAD). Abortion is a hot-button issue, as such it's difficult to get unbiased stuff on it. The presentation was biased towards pro-abortion stats and stances. I'm not making a value judgement on that at all, but it was clearly slanted.

 

I was very interested in watching the student responses, especially in light of this thread, which I'd been thinking about. Almost to a kid, you could see how the presentation was absorbed and accepted without question by the vast majority. Nobody even commented on the fact that it was presented by an organization with an obvious agenda, and they didn't try and hide their bias.

 

Again- not trying to talk about abortion. Many hot button issues are like this. I'm like this when it comes to global warming when I teach environmental science, for example (it's happening). The only few who didn't respond like little intellectual sheep were those so ingrained against abortion, they probably weren't listening anyway.

 

Bio brought up the issue of basic facts that need to be taught. As we increase the amount of facts that need to be taught, we decrease the kids ability to question, simply because of time. It's easier if they just believe you. And far, far more dangerous.

[niviene]

Bio brought up the issue of basic facts that need to be taught. As we increase the amount of facts that need to be taught, we decrease the kids ability to question, simply because of time. It's easier if they just believe you. And far, far more dangerous.

 

Such a good post... great points. It seems like at a younger and younger age they are being taught to just accept what they are taught, learn it, memorize it, be able to recite it for the test, and there isn't time to question it. Combined with your example of hot button issues, teaching them not to question and then presenting them with controversial information (something which each of us should decide on our own whether to be for or against) they simply accept a slanted view without realizing it is biased and without question. I feel that children should be taught to question everything until they understand... even taught how to question things.

[gubba]

G'day folks,

 

Bumab & fishteacher I wonder what you see as your students' primary motivations? Also what would you see as your school's community's (eg. parents, community groups & leaders, local business) primary expectations of their educators? Also, with all the groups, whose rhetoric matches their behaviour the most in your opinion?

 

I'm currently scrabbling about blindly trying to grab some hooks to focus some reading I'm doing at the moment centred on aspects of our scientific, linguistic and pyschological conceptions, with the vague sense in the back of my head of attempting to gain some form of overall perspective. I've strong views on our theories on child development etc. but would rather refrain from spouting them at the moment, as I'm keen to gain an appreciation of other points of view. cheers gub.

 

ps. please don't hesitate to tell me to mind my own ------! if you feel I'm butting in. gub.

[bumab]

Not at all. The situation in Washington centers around a new, high stakes (pass it or fail high school) test all the juniors need to take. It's mostly fact based. Thus, we've got a set of concepts to go over in school for the kids to learn. If we don't cover them all, it's a crapshoot as to if it's going to be on the test or not- and there's really too many to cover in depth. The only way to get through is "just listen and learn, kids!" which does not lend itself to critical thinking on any deep level.

 

We of course try to get this thinking out there, but since it's really a secondary objective to teaching them "the basic facts they need to know," it's hard to find the time. Those that do think independently are OK, of course, it's those that need some instruction in critical thinking skills that often get passed over. I know many teachers in the building are facing this problem (thank God it's not just me :eek:)

 

I'm pretty sure the situation in Texas is similar, from what Fish has said. True?

[Fishteacher73]

No worries, gubba, input is always valued.

 

Bumab & fishteacher I wonder what you see as your students' primary motivations? Also what would you see as your school's community's (eg. parents, community groups & leaders, local business) primary expectations of their educators? Also, with all the groups, whose rhetoric matches their behaviour the most in your opinion?

 

Motivation for my students is on a general whole lacking. I work at a low-income low performing school that is predominantly hispanic. (I do not mean to imply that any one of these factors is a cause, but the combination of demographics and performance is an easy correlation if test scores are examined). This school has little or no outside involvement. Primary expectations of the educators is to increase passing rates on the TAKS (Texas Academic Knowledge and Skills). Job retention is largely influenced by pass/fail rates.

 

As for putting your money where your mouth is...none.

[Fishteacher73]

I'm pretty sure the situation in Texas is similar, from what Fish has said. True?

 

We have had Bush a bit longer down here in Texas. The standardized testing has infiltrated throughout the educational system. They have a version of the TAKS that must be passed every year for the student to be advanced (There are some variances that can be balanced by semester grades). There are variations of the test for ESL and SPecial ed. students. As you said the tests change yearly as well as the specific objectives and as a teacher you do not really know what specificly they have in mind when they state some objectives in such vague terms.

[gubba]

G'day,

 

Thanks bumab and & Fish. How would you rate your situations re. the notorious 11+ exams of the UK that streamed all primary (elementary?) students into various secondary school systems on the results of a one off curriculum based examination? I've picked up on the fact that education seems to be a state by state responsibility, as here downunder, but I've also been under the impression that schools were also answerable to local authorities, HELP I'm confused? Am I looking at a situation where states finance the infrastructure and co-ordinate the curriculum, while some form of local school authorities see to the running of the schools? Is there some attempt towards national benchmarks? (I'll bet there is rhetorically.) How do you supply your trades? Again I was under the impression that you valued the ideal of a general education rather more than most and put off streaming as far as possible

 

About student motivation, I wonder if you both would care to hazard a guess as to:

1. What the kids think are the reasons why they are going to school?

2.Which styles of student behaviour gain the respect of the kids and set the tone for the school?

3. What the parents hope their kids might obtain from their schooling?

 

thanks gub.

[Fishteacher73]

I am a big advocate of the European gymnasium system (Streaming I think is the same... students have the same base education , then for high school, there are exams and it is split into academic and vocational, and so on into university).

 

In the states, public education is largely funded locally. Only ~ 15% of a districts funding comes from the federal level. This being said, it is a 15% that they are hungry for and will adopt dfederal policies to maintain these funds (Like No Child Left Behind).

 

As for trades, essentailly they are filled by those that are driven out of school or in many ways a lot of individuals follow the family pattern.

 

1. Most would not go if they did not have to. Many go because they will have truancy charges if they didn't.

 

2. This is tricky. It can vary from school to school and demographic variances as well. As a general rule grades and good behavior ARE NOT IT THOUGH.

 

3. Many parents just want a daycare for their kids.